[Funny_Chord]

Having scanned through some of people’s lyrics on the feedback section of the forum I thought I’d give some thoughts of my own on lyrics/lyric-writing. This is as much me giving myself advice as anything - but I suppose I’m also indirectly giving my views on some of the lyrics others have posted on this forum without picking on anyone specifically. In fact I’ll write this as if I’m giving feedback to my teenage self.

The truth is that I find many ‘amateur’ lyrics (for want of a better term) to be largely impenetrable. Phrases may make sense in isolation but perhaps won’t gel together to make a coherent narrative. Perhaps the wording itself doesn’t clearly convey particular imagery or emotions. More fundamentally, I often have no clear sense of what the song is about simply by reading the lyric. So, though I’m hardly an expert, I’ve come up with a few basic guidelines for sense-checking lyrics:

•   Do you as the writer know what the song is about? Can you describe the story/theme in a sentence or two? If not, it’s unlikely you’re going to connect with many listeners.
•   The message/narrative should come first – once you’ve written this you can work on ‘fancy’ imagery. Even then, keep this to a minimum. Be wary of trying too hard to use ‘interesting’ language; this is off-putting more often than not and is very hard to get right.
•   Does the lyric have internal coherence i.e. do the verses support (and build towards) the chorus rather than seeming like they’re from a different song? The first verse should set the scene – then it can be expanded upon (the listener should have a pretty good idea of what the song is about after a few lines). If the song describes events, do they happen chronologically? Etc…

•   In summary, the question ‘what is it about?’ should be applied to all verses, the verses should be linked to each other and the chorus should somehow ‘sum up’ each and every verse.

Let me illustrate these points by digging out a very old song of mine: ‘Oxygen High’. When I was 19 I thought this would be a cool title for a song and this was my starting point. For the chorus, I came up with ‘oxygen high, better than an alcohol low’. I wrote this without really thinking through what the song was about – it was just rhetoric I liked the sound of. However, assigning a meaning isn’t too difficult – something like: one doesn’t need artificial stimulants - a kind of variation on ‘all I need is the air that I breathe’!

I then wrote the following first verse, again just using phrases I liked the sound of:

Please label me I need a direction
Ignore my misplaced indignation
Were you named after a knight or a saint?
I’m not autistic I just need to escape

What on earth does this mean?! I’m sure at the time I had an idea of what each line meant but a) this isn’t at all clear and b) none of the lines work together to form a coherent whole. Plus, what does any of this have to do with idea of getting high on the natural things in life? (plus the last line is quite insensitive!)

Hopefully this shows why I’ve come up the above guidelines even though it is perhaps a particularly appalling lyric!

My teenage self would probably have said ‘ah, but what about ‘I am the Walrus’ – that’s an amazing song and doesn’t make any sense!’ And he would have been right. But if you’re going to go down that road a) you have to come up with consistently interesting/remarkable/humorous imagery and b) good luck! Also worth pointing out that Lennon was deliberately being obtuse as he was sick of people picking apart his work and reading deep meanings into songs. It’s also unlikely you’ll get away with this without an existing fanbase.

My own personal grey area is that I don’t think songs have to necessarily be about something in particular but they need to appear to be, if that makes sense! However, that’s possibly harder to pull off than just having something in mind as you write.

Anyway, that’s probably quite enough from me for now – would be very interested to hear the thoughts/experiences of others!

[Paulski]

Hi there and welcome to the forum!
I found this posting a very good primer on coming up with the basis of a good lyric. The only thing I would add is - whether you are writing a lyric or a complete song, DO THE WORK!. I'm one of the worst offenders for breaking that rule - I'll come up with "placeholder" lyrics so I can get the melody written or I'll do a placeholder guitar/piano track so I can get the arrangement worked out, etc, etc. Pretty soon the song is like Frankenstein's body full of fake/temporary parts. The key at this point is to recognize and accept that there is still a lot of work to be done so each of those fake parts can become something special and unique and avoid the temptation to dress him up in a fancy suit and display him on my front lawn. You also have the opportunity at this point to decide - can this Frankentein really be brought to life? Sometimes the answer is no - but better to be honest with yourself and move on if that is the case.
Paul

[DevyE]

 You just need to listen to Salamanda Palaganda, all your song writing questions will be answered 

[diademgrove]

Hi Funny_Chord,

interesting set of questions. I liked your 19 year lyrics. What they say to me is, Please help me, I'm lost, if I shout at you don't take any notice, I want your advice, you're helpful where named after someone important? Please show me the light.

I wasn't keen on the first line (?) of the chorus.

I am the Walrus makes sense to me, it takes a number of commonplace events and transforms them with the help of a police siren rhythm. Could I write something like that, I doubt it, but it doesn't stop my enjoyment of the song. Part of that enjoyment is putting my own interpretations onto the words.

Song writing involves writing simple, easily understood lyrics as well as surreal words. Why restrict yourself to one half of the cake when you could have both.

Just my thoughts,

Keith

[tone]

I like this thread So thanks for the contributions so far. I totally get what you're saying, but I don't actually agree with everything you say.

I don't think lyrics have to be simple, although you shouldn't avoid simplicity. Sometimes the cleverest and most engaging lyrics sound simple, but they're not (Paul Simon, I'm looking at you).

But I absolutely think that all writing should aim to use 'interesting language'. If your use of language isn't interesting, how can your lyric be? Maybe I'm missing your point here, but I see words as part of the shape of my melodies. The wrong word is like the wrong note. Language is essential to the song.

Listen to pretty much any Tom Waits song, and you'll hear an example of this. There are simple lines, and simple themes, but the language is always interesting, and always full of colour and texture.

Also I think narrative can be implied rather than forced. One of my main difficulties with a lot of lyrics is that they leave nothing to the listener. Why would I listen to someone singing "Every time you go away you take a piece of me with you" when I could listen to "when the radical priests come to get me released we was all on the cover of Newsweek"

Different narratives I know, but you get my point I hope?

Paul makes some excellent points as usual. So many lyrics sound rushed and unfinished. Like a pencil sketch that the artist never got round to actually painting. And while I think those draft lyrics often have a lot of energy and sometimes some really good lines, it's a waste to bury them among clumsy and cliche-ridden filler.

Your 19 year old self looks like Bob Dylan compared to mine, funny chord

[Funny_Chord]

Firstly, thanks for engaging with this thread – always a bit worried as a forum newbie that the only response will be from tumbleweed!

Having started writing regularly again after several years I’m trying hard to ask myself ‘but what does it mean?, what’s it about?’ simply because it helps me to focus and helps me to write (I’ve always found lyrics much harder than music). It’s very nice to see positive comments about my teenage effort but revisiting my old material I felt much of the half-decent music was ‘wasted’ on nonsense lyrics (or at least lyrics that didn’t hang together in a satisfying way). One of my tasks is actually to go back and ‘rescue’ some of this material by rewriting the words!

Of course, many of my favourite songs don’t have obviously meaningful lyrics. Of the artists I admire, Bowie is perhaps the most consistent in coming up with dense, ambiguous lyrics (though arguably he wouldn’t be the star he is without writing some character-based, story-driven songs). I’m also a big Manics fan, for my sins, and something like Motorcycle Emptiness certainly isn’t a simple lyric – but the music is so good you go along for the ride and are prepared to make an effort. I guess that’s an important point – lyrics aren’t supposed to be read in isolation like poems, they’re supposed to complement/be complemented by music. Walrus’ words work really well with that nee-nawing rhythm as Keith suggests.

Tone – yeah, I probably used the wrong terminology. Lyrics should be interesting! But what I find is that too often lyrics are self-consciously ‘poetic’ and this can muddy rather than enhance the message. I believe that art is ultimately about communication and simple is infinitely better than incomprehensible. Yes, feelings can be communicated via abstract imagery but with my guidelines I’m advising myself to steer clear of trying this too often!  Be interesting but not flowery - the holy grail for me is interesting and comprehensible! To take a very simple example I once saw on a BBC 4 doc – not my sort of music at all, but the phrase ‘unbreak my heart’ is a new, interesting way of saying something with a very clear meaning. I’m sure there are much better examples but hopefully you see what I mean!

That all said, I’m now worried that my lyrics are becoming too bland! It’s all about balance though isn’t it? That’s extremely difficult to get right – and why I’ll never write the perfect song (but it’s also what makes songwriting so intricate and interesting and why I’ll continue trying to do so).

The point on finishing things is a good one – that’s an important skill in itself and is perhaps the key distinguishing factor between professional and amateur in any creative field. The main issue for the bedroom troubadour is that there’s no external pressure to finish anything!

[digger72]

Hi,

I've no idea whether my lyrics are good or bad - but i like to think they are a part of me put on the page - or in to a song, rather than just a few words which are meaningless other than to fill part of a song.

To quote Tone: I think narrative can be implied rather than forced.
And Keith: Part of that enjoyment is putting my own interpretations onto the words.
And Funny Chord: often lyrics are self-consciously ‘poetic’ and this can muddy rather than enhance the message

I think these comments reflect my outlook.

Some lyrics (without music) just read as good poems to me, and I struggle to hear them in a song - especially in the type of music i like - so i guess that is down to my limited musical taste. Lyrics for me are about conjuring something in my head - and often these are misheard lyrics. I reckon i sing the wrong words to at least half of the songs i listen to, but the image they paint is vivid in my mind. That for me is what good lyrics do - take the listener somewhere. And hopefully this is somewhere slightly different for each listener as that means the song has become personal to them.

Interesting topic.

Welcome to the forum.

Digger

[DevyE]

Hi Funny_Chord

But would Bowie have written the dense, ambiguous lyrics he did if he wasn't in friendly competition for a period with the guy who wrote Salamanda Palaganda and working with the same producer. Nonsense, catchy word play about a zoo visit it may be (and an aquired taste) but Bowie also had to experiment and of course they were both Dylan disciples.

I do agree with most of your observations but in setting these rules for yourself are you not in danger of stifling your creativity?

As for your first verse, yes I too would be asking myself where am I taking this? Sometimes I think lyrics are like a puzzle that need solving but when you do (are they ever really finished, ask Dylan?) and they fit a melody/chord sequence it's so satisfying 

[diademgrove]

I think your are being a little hard on your 19 year old self, Funny_Chord.

You may find time setting aside, say 2 hours, to rewrite one of your old songs, for example the one in the opening post. Try to keep as much of the original lyric as possible but aim to end up with a song that makes some sort of sense to you now. I know you don't know what the words mean but that isn't important. Its what they could mean to you now if rewritten. I would ignore the original melody and use as many or as little words as you think necessary.

After the two hours you will have learned a lot about your approach to song writing and maybe a little more about the craft of writing lyrics. If you end up with a set of lyrics or even better, a song that you like please put the finished article on the forum. If not you could then say goodbye to your 19 year self after trying to understand what he wrote.   

If you think its a bit daft imagine John Lennon sending you the lyrics and saying "I'm not about these can you see what you could do with them". Amongst my school friends, more people liked I am the Walrus for the lyrics than the tune and production. The words drew us in and the rest was just the cherry on top.

Feel free to ignore me if you don't agree,

Keith

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

Hi Funny_chord

I think your guidelines are pretty well spot on.

For my two centîmes worth I'm here in the defence of simple lyrics.

As you say, 'lyrics aren’t supposed to be read in isolation like poems, they’re supposed to complement/be complemented by music.'

As Digger implies, you don't even have to know all the lyrics to enjoy a song.

I agree wholeheartedly with Tone when he says 'I see words as part of the shape of my melodies. The wrong word is like the wrong note. Language is essential to the song.'
But Tone, I would say that your other comments don't apply generally and are more from a singer/songwriter perspective where the lyric does tend to be more personal and poetic (for want of a better word).
I don't think you really mean to dismiss more basic lyrical possibilities. I can't square the picture of the man laughing with his dog with the image of a man only getting pleasure from songs which have deep,'interesting' lyrics.

Yes, the line from the Hall & Oates song is not a good one, but I don't think that every lyric has to be as deep or incisive as the Paul Simon one.

I don't think most of us, after hearing a song that we think is great, say 'Wow what a great lyric that was!', we say 'Wow what a great song that was.'

Simon and Garfunkel covered 'Bye Bye Love', after all. An unashamed pop song from a songwriting team who wrote several other hit songs.

That's not to say that I endorse crap lyrics. There is a limit.

And saying this doesn't mean that I don't work hard on my own lyrics.  Once I've got a lyrical idea I work out how I'm going to structure the lyric rhyme-wise, and try to convey the ideas with simple words which I like the sound of.

I want the song to work as a whole which may sometimes mean using a bland/clichéd phrase.  Here are some I've used which might seem boring taken in isolation.

"Your broken heart tears me apart"  "We're going to do it all over again."  "As time goes by I know I should be feeling blue."

Hardly Rhymin' Simon, is it? But for me, in the context of the song as a whole, they work.

Each to his own of course. I'm just trying to say that simple, even tried and trusted words and phrases have their place, I think.  It's how they're used that's important. This is also a songwriting skill.

I hope I know what I'm talking about having only written about six songs!

[Gallowglass]

Please label me I need a direction
Ignore my misplaced indignation
Were you named after a knight or a saint?
I’m not autistic I just need to escape

What on earth does this mean?! I’m sure at the time I had an idea of what each line meant but a) this isn’t at all clear and b) none of the lines work together to form a coherent whole. Plus, what does any of this have to do with idea of getting high on the natural things in life? (plus the last line is quite insensitive!)

Can you print this bit out and stuff it into a rubber mallet, which I can whack over the head of my band's chief lyricist? He writes like this - 'deep,' meaningless sentences strung together with no relationship at all to each other - and it drives me up the flippin' wall. Constant editing, trying to feed a narrative into a vacuum. Gah!

Then I look at bands like Bring Me The Horizon and think actually, maybe his style can work.

Rant over  Fantastic guide.

[Funny_Chord]

Ha!

I guess both the beauty and frustration of songwriting is that there are no right answers to this one. Perhaps the key is to try to express something that's tangible to you as an artist. Part of my beef with my teenage lyrics is that even I didn't fully understand them (even at the time I don't think) so how can I be expressing anything genuine?

If the objective is to come up with interesting nonsense wordplay or deliberately confuse the critics then fine - but there has to be an underlying aim. There has to be some sort of truth which the artist is trying to convey.

I keep using the word 'artist' - the aim of a songwriter obviously has to be considered. If you want to shift units then best not to be too obscure! I notice someone recently posted a song called 'Freedom' - deliberately choosing this word to maximise chances of syncs etc. This is perhaps as noble an aim as any other but not the way I would hope to write - understandable doesn't have to mean generic!

Keith - I will certainly be doing some rewriting of old material but hadn't considered actively keeping as much of the original lyrics as possible. This is an interesting idea and something I will certainly consider.

[gibsona07]

Fantastic post. Certainly some hard truths in there for me at least. It's often tempting to ignore the overall benefit of the song just to squeeze in a fancy line that really does nothing but confuse things.

I'll add one caveat though. These rules are somewhat dependent on the genre. If it's an acoustic singer/songwriter type song then 9 times out of 10 you're going to be better off for following these rules. I think if it's say, for example, a heavier psychedelic rock piece then one can get away with more in the lyric department. I think it just depends on how prominent the music is compared to the lyrics/vocals. It's all about balance I suppose.

[diademgrove]

hi Funny_Chord,

I get the impression from your teenage lyrics that you were confused. Some of the lines are better than others, I agree, but the impression I get is one of confusion. Confusion is genuine, so genuine it still affects me now.

Hope you find the time to follow my suggestion,

Keith

[JacquesDefoe]

Interesting discussion.

Like some on here I've been guilty of the "placeholder" lyrics - and yet sometimes they work better than the overly contrived verses. I often have the feeling that some songwriters try too hard, and it shows. We can't all be Dylan, and what a dull world it would be if we were. I think some of the best lyrics I've written have been at the last minute, in the studio when we had already recorded all the instruments. I recorded one song recently, and even after we had finished the instrumental tracks, I didn't quite know what the song was about. I had only finished the verses that morning, and yet... and then I had an idea which (I hope) gave the whole sing structure, a single refrain between the verses, which became the title. That worked for THAT song, but I guess its far from perfect all the time.

I reckon it boils down to how you write. I usually start with the chords, then the melody, and then lyrics. This determines how I write lyrics, of course. It doesn't mean I relegate them, just that I am guided by the rhythm, mood and tempo I've already built up. (Until my bandmates go "no, that's a slow number..."!).