Harmony

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namenowoneman

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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2012, 11:59:05 AM »
Yep, I guess it's about how specific you are about notating it. If it's a sus4 then you just want a suspended 4th, but if it just says sus then it can potentially be different things. You don't really need a 5th (since it's the strongest harmonic after the octave, and doesn't really make the chord any more descriptive), but you could voice it as Am7/D (which is like a condensed ii-V in jazz harmony).

I'd say that C/D is more specific than just Dsus, but that they can be interchangeable, and that it can be a new sound to try out instead of just suspending the 4th.

tone

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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 11:27:54 PM »
Ah, I think I understand what you mean now. I didn't know about leaving out the 5th - I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to jazz...
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RPHughes91

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« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2012, 10:32:19 AM »
Hi just an idea, i sing in a barbershop chorus and harmony is everything. trying looking into 3rd 5th and 7th notes as well as the circle of fifths.

any sort of barbershop music is worth looking into for harmony ideas

chrislong170273

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« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2012, 10:01:45 PM »
yay,
been away for a while, different musical project, but people are using the thread, great

in terms of the sus chords, not going to join in cos I have my own way of looking at them, and seems as if this has maybe overcomplicated things?
dunno

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tone

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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2012, 09:11:52 AM »
Who's afraid of complication?


Not me!


Pile back in, son ;)
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chrislong170273

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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2012, 08:49:47 PM »
I'm kinda confused about what is being discussed. sus just means suspended, a note that doesn't belong to the triad. sus4, specifically the 4th above the root, sus2 specifically the 2nd above the root. To me, C/D is a C triad with a D in the bass. To me this is rock/pop/jazz notation. ok, the D is the 2nd, but it isn't a 2nd above the root at this point, it is below the triad. A different harmonic feel altogether. As a classical composer I work modally and atonally, and so some of the more 'academic' issues surroundthings like this are not my domain... :-)

Chris
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Ramshackles

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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2012, 07:05:06 AM »
now talk about diminished and augmented chords :)

tone

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« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2012, 08:47:23 AM »
I love diminished chords!

I went through a phase where I couldn't write a song that didn't include at least one diminished chord. Once I'd discovered it, it was like a holy grail. But there's nothing to it. Simply a minor third stacked on a minor third. So take a minor chord (triad) and pull the 5th down a semitone and you have your dim chord. Cdim = C Eb Gb

Simples!
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chrislong170273

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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2012, 09:47:48 PM »
And try using them as passing chords between the 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, 4th and 5th, and 5th and 6th degrees of the scale....

Aannnd augmented chords, 2 major thirdsn or sharpen the 5th :-)


Next

Tritone substitutions ???
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tone

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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2012, 09:57:31 PM »
Tritone substitutions sounds like fun.

Care to walk me through, Chris? :D
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chrislong170273

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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2012, 10:09:30 PM »
Weeeelllll,

Quickly, a tritone, three tones or six semitones, for example between a B and and F.
Dominant 7ths contain this interval, its what makes a dom 7th chord sound unstable. What you can do is substitute a dominant 7th chord with another one 6 semitones higher/lower.
So, the most common usage of this is the old jazz cliche. So, in C major, instead of a traditional perfect cadence (V-I) of G7 to Cmaj7, you can have Dflat7 - Cmaj7The reason this works is because both G7 and Dflat contains a B and an F, the same tritone, hence 'tritone substitution'

!!! :-)
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Ramshackles

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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2012, 10:15:06 PM »
Ok...how many people do these things anyway without realising what it is they are doing?  :D

chrislong170273

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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2012, 10:31:32 PM »
And how many do these things knowing what they are doing?
:-)
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HillbillyJim

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« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2012, 03:50:46 AM »
RE: Songwriters knowing music theory, I don't know how traditional composers think of music theory but I tend to think of it like a box of tricks. It seems to me that, although Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards, Morrissey/Marr etc. didn't know music theory how a professor of music might imagine it, they've all got favourite chord progressions, harmonies, ways of phrasing a melody, other tricks, basically knowledge about music: they just don't know what the name is for what they're doing. I think that's the only difference really. Well, your music professor's knowledge is obviously going to be more comprehensive, but it's not like they're trying to conceive the whole idea of a chord progression from scratch every time they write a song.

Inevitably, these people have all written so many songs and tried so many chord progressions, or found chord progressions they liked playing other people's songs, or bumped into some guy who's said, 'Hey, have you tried this chord?' that they already know what's going to sound good, they're not stumbling around half as blindly as they might have you believe. Fair enough, they'll occasionally do something by accident, and decide 'Wow! That's so cool!' and it gets in a song, but the fact is that these people were writing so many great songs in such a short space of time that they couldn't possibly rely on doing something incredible by accident every time. When I read things about the early Beatles I'm always struck by, considering Lennon claimed to not know anything, they seemed to spend the whole time asking anyone who'd listen everything about music that they possibly could!

Basically I think the whole idea that songwriters don't know music theory is essentially a myth, that spreads because people's own ideas of what music theory is are too narrow. I think it's perpetrated by the songwriters themselves to an extent, in the way that it's quite endearing and makes them all sound especially brilliant, when in reality they know all the tricks, they just don't necessarily know what it's called. And of course it's a great story for the media too.

You can see it in the media's favourite football managers too, Harry Redknapp, Brian Clough etc. claiming tactics are a load of nonsense when it's only really because they've got a narrow definition of it in their mind - they're (were for Brian) still out there coaching the players every day telling them what to do in different situations etc. and actually they know exactly what they're talking about, they're not winging it at all.  

*Rant over*   :D
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 03:54:20 AM by HillbillyJim »
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Schavuitje

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« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2012, 01:58:56 PM »
Think you're spot on there Hillbilly. I often tell people that I don't know all the names of chords and often I can't even tell you exactly
what chords I use in my songs. But some of my friends who are great at the knowledge side of stuff say things like," ooh I like how you swapped from such
a chord to such a chord taking it from the relative minor to bla bla bla"
So I get you are right, whe you have enough playing under your belt and you experiment enough, you'll probably be doing these things anyway without knowing
exactly what you are doing :)
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