The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: hofnerite on August 28, 2010, 10:47:14 PM
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I am a melody man, I write songs by playing guitar (or piano) while humming a melody line, sometimes I put a few words in to see where I am going but melody ALWAYS comes first. I then sit down when the whole melody and music parts are done to write the words.
How do you do it? Are words or melody the most important to you? In which order do you write songs?
Personally I find lyrics the hardest part of the process and part of me really wants to find a Bernie Taupin so I have something to work from every time I sit down to write. I find melodies come naturally as I find chords. It's fascinating to me to hear from other songwriters as to how they do it, so please post your methods!
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I'm a melody first writer too, although I have written one or two starting with words. I also find the lyrics the hardest part, but I think they're a really important part of the song, at least for the kinds of songs I want to write.
I would say the music comes first, because although terrible lyrics can ruin a song to some extent, I think a terrible song is just that: a terrible song, regardless of how good the lyrics are. I've begun to try not to see them as two separate things. A song has melody, harmony, rhythm and words. Take away any of those ingredients, and the song loses something essential.
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I agree with the "all-in-one" view.
It seems that a lot of songwriting sites emphasise lyrics over anything else, often telling people that a sing is rubbish just from a review of some lyrics. There are lots of very very famous songs I can mention that have poor (on paper) lyrics but have gone on to be classics.
I was listening to "Dance Tonight" my McCartney today. On paper the lyrics are atrocious, same with the music if it were an instrumental but together it works, has sold millions and used as part of Apple's world wide adverts. I know it's Macca and all he needs to do is fart and it goes to no.1 but it just proves your point Tone that a good song is getting each part just right.
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I am a melody man, I write songs by playing guitar (or piano) while humming a melody line, sometimes I put a few words in to see where I am going but melody ALWAYS comes first. I then sit down when the whole melody and music parts are done to write the words.
How do you do it? Are words or melody the most important to you? In which order do you write songs?
Personally I find lyrics the hardest part of the process and part of me really wants to find a Bernie Taupin so I have something to work from every time I sit down to write. I find melodies come naturally as I find chords. It's fascinating to me to hear from other songwriters as to how they do it, so please post your methods!
Hi Hofnerite. My method is the same as yours. Melody always comes first, the lyrics are usually a bit of an issue for me. I hum any ideas onto a small dictaphone and then leave it for a while so i've sort of forgotten what i've hummed. If when i play the tape back (a few weeks or months later) my idea jumps out at me i go with it. If my idea sounds bad i drop it. i have a few bits of songs laying around but when i decide to record one i stick to that one. By the time the backing is all done i'm then cornered into coming up with some lyrics. Do you record your songs?
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I tend to focus on the lyrics primarily and then edit them once I have an idea for a melody. Occasionally I will come up with a melody first but for the most part the lyrics are my main focus. I have, in the past, written the lyrics for a whole song before even considering the melody.
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I tend to focus on the lyrics primarily and then edit them once I have an idea for a melody. Occasionally I will come up with a melody first but for the most part the lyrics are my main focus. I have, in the past, written the lyrics for a whole song before even considering the melody.
I do exactly the same thing...to me the lyrics are definitely the most important thing and so many times I've found that I have a great tune but no words to go with it. When this happens you end up trying to "fill in" with random, slightly cliche lyrics and I find overall this results in poorer songwriting. For me the first thing is an idea, something to write about that is original and personal to me rather than something everyone writes about and can relate to to an extent. Then generally I'll mess around on the guitar trying to find something that sounds nice and on a good day the song will just walk into my head :)
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I've tried to write lyrics before I have a tune in my head, but I always fail, and either end up reverting to my usual "tune-then-lyrics" routine or, or it just becomes prose rather than lyrics. What I've not done though, is taken someone else's lyrics and tried to make a song out of it, a la the John/Taupin routine, I'd probably find that a lot easier than trying to write lyrics from scratch without any melodic basis.
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I always write lyrics first. If I'm lucky they come complete with melody and I have to figure out the chord structure and things afterwards. It makes my songs pretty wordy and complicated though, which can be a bad thing. I'd love to be able to write good simple lyrics, I think there is much more art in that - saying more with less - unless you're Leonard Cohen :)
As an excercise I've tried writing songs music first and I've got a couple of songs now through that, but because they ended up sounding so different, I'm not sure if I like them yet. I had to try something though because I only write lyrics first if there is something burning I have to say, but I haven't felt like that for a while and so trying to find other ways of doing it.
I wrote one song by writing down voice hallucinations. Pretty desperate times! I tend to only hear them when I'm trying to go to sleep - I think it's called hypnagogia. The end result was pretty weird, but a lot of people say it's their favourite slow song of mine. (Weirdest line in it - "So what do you think fills this space? The gaps in the storeroom yard. And if you think the world's a stage, then take it away". Hehe, think I only managed to get away with it because I looped vocals over vocals through the song so it sounded kinda dream-like. :)
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Melody man here :) I often twiddle on my guitar or, just aquired keyboard, until I find something that interests me.
Sometimes I think I'm never going to fit anything lyrically to it because it's so strange but then when I have recorded the guitar, bass and drums I sit, and listen, and let whatever wants to come out of me, comes out... Melody-wise and lyric-wise.
I think the melody and meter of the vocals comes to me first and then once I start singing whatever lyrics come to me at the time, they usually lead to a subject matter that fits the music.
Or in my ears they do haha
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always the melody, hardly ever write any stone cold lyrics on paper to be honest, just let it roll off the tounge and store it away in my head - but that's just down to the pure lazyness of a teenager haha :p
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in my case, also melody first, that seems to be the relatively easy part
and then try to find lyrics that somewhat fit to the chords and singing melody i have in mind, not good at that...at all
A friend gave me a copy of Rikky Rooksby's book called "Lyrics. writing better words for your songs".
I enjoyed reading it, some good tips in the book, I think, but it is still hard to come up with lyrics for me
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Speaking personally.
Never lyrics first. I need something to hang the words onto.
But mostly, with the melody comes some "off the cuff" lyrical phrases. And when I'm lucky the words will give me an attitude for the song, and in turn define the phrasing of the melody, which structures the metre and allows me to write full lyrics. ??? I think that makes sense? ;D
But always the music will kick off a lyrical idea, never the other way around.
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Mihkay, yes, that makes sense to me
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Speaking personally.
Never lyrics first. I need something to hang the words onto.
But mostly, with the melody comes some "off the cuff" lyrical phrases. And when I'm lucky the words will give me an attitude for the song, and in turn define the phrasing of the melody, which structures the metre and allows me to write full lyrics. ??? I think that makes sense? ;D
But always the music will kick off a lyrical idea, never the other way around.
totaly agree
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Speaking personally.
Never lyrics first. I need something to hang the words onto.
But mostly, with the melody comes some "off the cuff" lyrical phrases. And when I'm lucky the words will give me an attitude for the song, and in turn define the phrasing of the melody, which structures the metre and allows me to write full lyrics. ??? I think that makes sense? ;D
But always the music will kick off a lyrical idea, never the other way around.
Exactly what i was trying to say.
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Its an interesting concept, i find it easy to write lyrics in poet form but then I take alot of time fitting it in to new melodys and songs :P If I was to give advice I would probably say do what comes natural!!!! BUT it may become difficult :)
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Hi guys, i would say that i would be a lyrics first type of guy, i am really not that musical as far as instruments go, sadly. I am really lucky in that i can give Andy a set of lyrics either with or without a vocal melody and he will then come up with a tune for them, he tells me i generally write lyrics with a rhythm and a feeling which he can then transfer into music sometimes we have to mess about with the words to make them fit better but its usually just the odd word here and there. Recently we have been doing it the other way around with andy giving me a tune and sometimes a line or a verse and i have found it really easy to come up with lyrics based on the feeling i get from his music. I appreciate though that i am lucky, a lot of stuff i have written in the past are just words on a bit of paper, more poetry than lyrics. Every now and then i try to look back on some and see if there is anything worth salvaging, maybe a line or two or even just a feeling or an idea.
Personally, i have never struggled writing lyrics i have literally got hundreds of sets of lyrics although i will definately concede that a lot of them aren't good or they're a bit cheesy, but usually the ones that make it into a song i'm pretty pleased with.
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Hi Liam (TNMC)
if you would happen to have some lyrics lying around...that you will not use...because find them too cheesy..or just didn't get any music for them...
I will be happy to try to put them too some music :), especially because writing lyrics for me is hell ;D
seriously, i am looking for someone who can write lyrics, so that i can focus on trying to find chords and singing melody
i mentioned this in the collaborations section of this forum a while ago
but I thought I might mention it again ;D
cheers
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Hi Dutchbeat i would be delighted to send you some lyrics, it would be great for me as well to hear what someone else could do with them! I will have a look and see if i can find something decent for you to work with. Feel free to do the song in which ever way you feel works, dont try to please me try to please yourself and if your happy with it then i will be as well.
I have really only ever worked with andy before so it is a bit exciting for me to collaborate with someone else. I'm looking forward to it. Dont worry if you dont like the lyrics or cant do anything with them, just tell me and i will send some others instead.
I'll be in touch soon.
Thanks!
Liam.
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Liam!
that would be first real collaboration to happen
via songwriterforum :o
needless to say, you have complete veto power, as the writer
you will get to ammend, change and veto everything!
Only if the song is perfect in the end we will post it on this forum ;D
sorry, songwriters
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Hi dutchbeat, I dont really do vetos (you can ask andy) and i'm sure it will be great anyway. I dont/cant write music so if you come up with something, anything, thats more than i could have on my own.
I'm torn between sending you lyrics i already have or writing fresh ones for you - any preference?
Liam.
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Hehe if you two have any commercial success with your collaboration, I'm well placed to make a claim as your agent :p ;D
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There are more ways to start than just melody or lyrics. Sometimes it's the harmony that comes first where you play around with a chord progression until a tune comes into your head. Rythm can also become the main starting point especially if you are a producer/ writer and the groove of what you are about to create becomes very important for promoting the song. It may also be a production idea that comes first which will then get developed into a song. A lot of people are writing music directly on PC's these days with a lot of creativity in software a few mouse-clicks away. I'm sure there are many other ways too. I once was inspired to write a song because I liked the sound of a squeaky door closing. (During an exam)
With me, I usually need some inspiration for to write a song and this could come from any of the above or in the preceding posts. Anything that will get the blood flowing and the thought: "Hey this might make a great song".
To me melody exists along with harmony and the two are part of the same thing. I probably go with this first a lot more than lyrics. But to answer the question I would say: Whatever inspires.
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Emmapeel
you are very right!..many ways to get inspired...much more than were mentioned
but....when you are addicted to songwriting...
(I am wondering, is songwriting an addiction? And if so, is that a problem? ::)
I think I may try to start a topic on that...
because, honestly, I have to sit down to try to make some music anyway....even if there has not been a moment of inspiration, am idea, a clear line.or anything
but I totally agree, there are many ways to get inspired!
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I usually write the lyrics first, well, at least the first line or the chorus.
Then I sit down with the guitar and if I'm lucky get a chord sequence going and the melody then unfolds through that.
I have been known to get a melody first though but then find I try to rush the lyrics which is never good.
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Always the lyrics for me. I think of some good lyrics and almost all of the time a melody pops in to my head to fit it :)
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This thread has fluctuated from one point of view to the other.
I can fully understand both points of view and I think both are equally relevant.
I'll try to explain.
I don't really think we as writers make a decision which way to approach writing, at least not initially. Perhaps later to get past a block or explore new areas, but fundamentally we are either musicians or poets.
I can only speak for myself, but the kind of music that influenced me had lyrics like " Ah wop ba ba loo ba ah wop bam boo... Tuttie fruitie.... oh rootie!" or "Come on feel the noise.....girls grab the boys....we get wild wild wild!" or "She loves you yeah yeah yeah!" Hardly Wordsworth or Byron! :o ;D
Even John Lennon's later Beatles wordplay did not, for me, live outside the music that went with it. Try reading "I am the Walrus" as a poem... ???
In traditional ballad folk music, the tune was only there as an aid to remembering the words. It allowed a story telling tradition to spread. The same tune could have many sets of lyrics over a period of time.
But in the Western Classical tradition the music itself can carry the story.....no..... the emotion without the need for lyrics.
More modern styles such as North American Country or Blues brought more emotion into the ballad tradition.
So to me...modern popular music is a synthesis of Western Classical and Ballad (as defined above).
So however you get there....just get there....Musician or poet...Both aspects are important so make them both the best you can.
Musicians become better poets and poets become better musicians.....Master both and you'll rule the world. :o ;D :D
Mihkay