[spacedogg]

Hey guys... I'm going to address a touchy subject here, but I think it's important to bring it up. While the greater majority of recordings linked in the reviews section are of a consistently reasonable standard, I think that some of the ones that are posted for review are nothing short of crap, and I really think this can subsequently affect how the listener feels about the material they are listening to. Now I could understand that in the past recording was expensive and home recording with cassettes and little black condenser mics usually made you sound like you were playing in a biscuit tin, but nowadays we have the wonders of home computing and with it, the miracle of digital recording. There is an absolute shed-load of free software out there to download which is far from complicated to use, so if you want to try and impress people with your work, then why not make the effort and learn to make it sound as good as it can? I don't want to kick the sh#t out of someone's ego or make them wonder why no-one is commenting on their work, but it has to be said that in some cases little effort is being put into presentation, and for me, certainly, it is very off-putting. (And before anyone says 'its ok for you to say that, you probably have loads of expensive gear' well, the truth is, I really don't. I've just put the effort in and learned how to use what I have as best I can.) We all know that the strength of this forum is in the value of positive criticism, but I feel it can only be stretched so far. If you think you need help in this aspect of your forays into music, then just ask, for goodness sake. It doesn't have to be something you should struggle with or something that lets your work down. I'm sure Tone, as our administrator here on the site would agree, the forum should be just as much of a resource as a place of encouragement?   

[tone]

Andy, thanks for posting this topic. I agree, the forum should be a place to make connections, learn about your craft and get honest, constructive feedback on your work.  Being no sound engineer myself, I tend to comment purely on the songwriting, but presentation is very important.

It's never easy offering feedback that could be taken badly; i.e. if you're saying something needs a lot of work or is just badly done.

Saying something is good when it's not isn't really encouragement in the proper sense of the word - or at least how I understand it. The only way to develop your skill in any area is to be aware of your weaknesses so that you can work on them.

I've also noticed that the people who tend to give the more thoughtful reviews are also those who are more active in the other parts of the forum. I find it slightly disappointing that some of the regulars only post in the reviews board. Not that it isn't an important part of the community, just that there's much more to it in my opinion.

[massa]

Hi boys! I agree with what you said about recording quality, but some people just can't afford it or have no clue what to do. I am blessed that I have a really good studio set up, but I'm limited in the fact I know jack shit bout music production. My recordings could be outstanding, but they aren't. They will be one day though, one day soon! I try!

I've noticed a lot of people post songs for review, and they hardly ever comment on other peoples work. I also feel that a lot of people (in my opinion, if the song is utter rot) will not say so, and would prefer not to comment. Some even say it's good. Whilst yes this is good for the general vibe of the site and you don't want to hurt someone elses feelings, THEY NEED TO KNOW where they are going wrong if they want to write good music. The fact that someone has went to the bother of signing up for this forum, and writing work, and posting it, makes me think that they WANT to be a songwriter.

If you were a driving examiner, would you pass someone who kept driving the car backwards and couldn't switch on the lights? I hardly think you'd say - that's ok, some really good driving there (you managed to not kill me after all)...

[Sonic-r]

You've got a really good studio set up but don't know how to use it. You frivolous playboy, you!  I could direct people to a guy on Youtube who produces stuff with an old four track mixer and fifty quids worth of software. But you'd never know that from the sound he makes.

I'm guilty of saying nothing if I hear something that just doesn't move me in any way. If it's good I'll say so, if it's bad I'll try to be objective and explain why I think something's wrong, but those songs that leave me indifferent are the hardest to deal with. What do you say? 'This song does nothing for me, but I don't know why' is neither use nor ornament.

[Dutchbeat]

on the other hand, I think this forum is visited by various kinds of songwriters
some enjoy perfecting their recordings and are completely obssessive about it, some hate it and just want to make a song and move on to the next as quickly as possible. Just like some love writing lyrics and are good at it, and others don't
etc.
And not everybody here wants to be a songwriter in a professional sense, but are true songwriters in the way that they love to make music
And, of course, some are more experienced than others in recording (to the older songwriters I would say: do you remember the soundquality of your first recordings?)
I think what I am trying to say, everybody should be able to put a song or even a half-finished idea out here for review, that is the beauty of this songwriterforum, and yes most people here are kind and try to give constructive criticism, but there is no obligation to comment to every song. Sometimes there is not much I can add, and also, the forum has grown to the point that I cannot listen and read everything anymore, i have to admit.
I hope that's o.k. 

[mihkay]

Whilst I agree with most of all the comments on the previous posts, I put forward my personal reasons for rarely reviewing.
Songs are put onto this forum for, I believe, two different reasons. Criticism or vanity.
First, let me clarify my terminology.

Criticism - Here's something I've done, tell me what's wrong with it.
Vanity - Here's something I've done, tell me you like it.

I believe most stuff put out on the WEB and this forum falls into one or the other of these categories with most output being a bit of both. We all want to be appreciated for what we've created and are rightfully protective of our creations.
Myself, I find it incredibly difficult to comment on other peoples work. Who the hell am I to say whether another individuals creation is of worth or not! It's not as if I'm Simon Cowall and if I like your stuff can get you published or make you famous!
So when it comes to reviewing other members stuff....if it leaps out at me, it I'll say so....if it doesn't, I say nothing.....For me Lyrics are slave to the music so forget about me commenting on any lyrics...........For the most part!
And here's the exception.
I'm one of the members who is active on the other parts of the forum outside the "Reviews area". Give me a specific question and I can comment, give advice, muddy the waters  and in very rare instances come up with an answer. 

I only speak for myself but....If you want me to comment / criticise your work, ask a specific question. I refuse / can't on this forum comment on a whole piece. That would only result in me, telling you what I wanted your song to sound like! I'm not a producer, I don't know what's right for that song...it's yours! Also I'm trying to be creative too, I can't sit down every day and listen to 3 new tunes thoughtfully, carefully, and then critique them. I'd have no time for my own stuff.
But ask me about a specific issue you have with your song, I'll be more than happy to give an opinion.

Now I'm not entirely innocent of the "Vanity" charge, but having been here for a few months now...for this forum I'd recommend avoiding "Vanity" publishing and stick to "Criticism" publishing. There are lots of places to promote your creations when they are "ready for the world" but very few places to get unbiased help with developing your craft. After all, I hope we're all trying to develop as creative individuals and I'd like to think here we're within a supportive group.

Mihkay

[massa]

Why does everyone refer to Simon Cowell like he's the be-all and end-all of the music industry.

NEWS FLASH: He isn't.

[marianheawood]

I'm baffled by the 'vanity' interpretation Could you elaborate, Mickay, (sorry if I've spelt that wrong). Your comments are interesting but I hope the reference to 'vanity' is just your own interpretation and also, at what point you think that songs are 'ready for the world'? This isn't meant to be confrontational, but just for you to elaborate a little more for a better understanding. (in my case, anyway). Thanks. Best Wishes from Marian.

[gibsona07]

I'll be frank too... most 'computer recording' done on garageband and such kill most recordings... recordings should have (at the risk of sounding incredibly pretentious) 'atmosphere'. half of what you record should be just the room itself... i agree that some recordings - mine included - are a little too under-produced... i do have the technology and software (mixcraft) to record decent demos, but frankly I'd just spend 6 hours distracting the recording from the true direction of the song - instead a lot of my demos are done via cassette. I say, leave your songs naked, good songs are good songs with or without good production. Infact, Ive heard songs hear which have been spoiled by over production. I'm currently listening to an early demo of 'Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands' recorded crudely in a denver hotel room. It's barely listenable, but the song still sounds like it's one of he best ever written. I know that none of any of our songs are anywhere near that level, but my point still stands  

Also, if you can't tell already, I most definetaly fall into the 'vanity' category! I will also try and improve some of my recordings in future... there's nothing wrong with the odd overdub!

[massa]

I really don't agree with you above me Gibsona07.

'atmosphere'. half of what you record should be just the room itself... i agree that some recordings - mine included - are a little too under-produced... i do have the technology and software (mixcraft) to record decent demos, but frankly I'd just spend 6 hours distracting the recording from the true direction of the song - instead a lot of my demos are done via cassette. I say, leave your songs naked, good songs are good songs with or without good production.

Who wants to hear background noise in an untreated room? Who wants reflected waves bouncing off walls, a clock, and your doorbell going? Load of crap! That last song you posted sounded terrible production wise, you would definitely benefit from sitting for six hours. Plus if I was you I'd get out of your VANITY state of mind, as you would do well to take some criticism from what you're producing. Bad song, bad production gives me a headache.

As for your comment:

I know that none of any of our songs are anywhere near that level, but my point still stands

Excuse me, don't dare group yourself with any other members of this forum. There are many people on here who have top rate production skills namely Sonic-r (though I've not heard his vocal production work yet), and as far as writing goes one of the songs Oli (a member here) wrote I loved so much I actually put it on a compilation CD I made to listen to in my car!

[tone]

half of what you record should be just the room itself

If you have a decent room to record in and a decent mic to record the ambience. There's no point sitting in your 3x5' bathroom with a laptop and expecting the recording to capture atmosphere. The point trying to be made is that a good song deserves a good presentation. I've been guilty of this too, having shared some pretty nasty recordings along with some more reasonable one.

One thing I would say is this: from my own personal perspective I am a songwriter. Not a producer. Not an audio technician. I can point a mic at my guitar, piano & voice, and capture a clean signal, but that's about as far as it goes. I do honestly believe that my songs stand up regardless of this (you may of course disagree.)

Massa is also right to say that there are some excellent songwriters on this forum, easily of a high enough standard to be playing to large audiences, radio, tv etc.

The vanity thing is perhaps the most pertinent of the subjects brought up in this thread. Of course, everyone loves to be told that their work is good, but if that's your reason for posting, I think you might be in the wrong place...

Maybe there should be another section on the forum for sharing your songs without asking for a critical response? If you all agree, I'll do it.

[hofnerite]

There are some good points made here and some complete BS.

AFAIK, this forum is for songwriters at all levels of ability to share works, get feedback, give feedback or just chill and chat. It's not a professional showcase of music, talent show or publisher's scouting platform.

Where members share songs, I will give an opinion on the SONG, not necessarily the production, because that's what I do, I am a songwriter. If production is not great, that's not a problem for me as I can usually see through that to understand the song. Yes sometimes poor production detracts from the song itself, sometimes it adds value or authenticity.

All I know is that if people want a critique of their song on here, they shouldn't need to conform to anyone's ideas about perfect production values. Sometimes I don't want to sit there for days perfecting the production of a song that I will probably never use again, sometimes I just want some feedback as to if a chorus works or how my lyrics fit. If I want to get a publishing deal, then yes, that's a different matter altogther but in terms of THIS board, users should be free to do whatever they like without restrictions. If that means some posters cannot review a song then so be it.

[gibsona07]

Ok... i may have sensationalised a few things for effect... I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I don't think I've ever heard a song by ANYONE even a tenth as good as 'Sad Eyed Lady', really, it's physically impossible, I didn't say that anyone else on this board was a good or bad songwriter, nor did I include myself in any category... but 'Sad Eyed Lady' is a creation of God, not man.

Go listen to primitive pre-war blues, Blind Willie Johnson or someone... then you'll hear what I mean about recording the room

I also promise to try harder with recording/production techniques, it's just most of what I hear done by digital programmes sound to me equally as awful as my recordings probably sound to you... when you start messing with garageband you can ruin things...

Also, I contest anyone who puts anything on the internet to prove their not vain. It can't be done.

[spacedogg]

Dude you really need to let go of your nostalgic recording excuse thing. Don't try to tell me about Blind Willie Johnson either, because that was something that happened a long, long time ago in very, very different circumstances to now. And your Bob Dylan thing is so full of sh+t. Just because you have some distorted image combined with an obvious emotional investment in 'Sad Eyed Lady' doesn't elevate it above the rest of us mere mortals... Its not even close to being Dylan's greatest musical (or musically technical, for that matter) achievement by a long chalk. If you're put off by or if you don't really know how to approach the raw, exposing elements of modern digital recording, then it a) sounds like you're not trying hard enough or b) sounds like you've got something happening that you don't want people to hear. You're not Doctor Who and you haven't got a time machine, and you sound like you haven't got a realistic or honest perception of modern basic recording technique.
Make your own sound. Listen back to things you do. Change and adapt. But most of all, put the work in. Believe me... effort shows. Give us something that has an edge, not something that is distorted with effing tape hiss.

[mihkay]

I'm baffled by the 'vanity' interpretation Could you elaborate, Mickay, (sorry if I've spelt that wrong). Your comments are interesting but I hope the reference to 'vanity' is just your own interpretation and also, at what point you think that songs are 'ready for the world'? This isn't meant to be confrontational, but just for you to elaborate a little more for a better understanding. (in my case, anyway). Thanks. Best Wishes from Marian.

I accept that the word "Vanity" is rather loaded but I was using it in the same way (I think) as it's used in literature publishing. An individual publishing work with no manager, agent or publishing house. Purely self developed and distributed.
As for song being "ready for the world". I believe that if you are your own producer (which I think applies to most contributors here) only you are able to say whether a song is finished or not.

I was hopefully trying to say that I feel uncomfortable reviewing other peoples songs. After all who am I to say what's good or bad? And my "Simon Cowell" comment was only there to highlight how little influence I have when it comes to giving advice on being successful or promoting someone else's songs.
I can't make anyone famous or rich by commenting on their songs........so why should I impose my preferences on their music?

As for being confrontational.... not a issue. If you feel I have not made myself clear, please question me. The last thing I want is to be misunderstood. I'm happy to clarify or defend logically any comments I make on this forum. I'll even back down if I've I've been posting whilst drinking. 

Hope this clears thing up. If not....ask away.

Mihkay ( Spelling  )