[markbriscoe]

I was hoping to get some general advice on submitting songs. Some baby steps. I know nothing about approaching music industry pros…  I was hoping to submit some songs I have put together to some record labels. Is it normal practice to send out demos with the idea that if anyone liked the songs enough, they could be re-worked with pros to a professional level? I don’t have enough knowledge to produce music to a finished level but I think they are just about good enough as demos.

Is the normal procedure to have enough songs for an album (10 - 14 songs?) before submitting, and to then submit 2 or 3 of your best works to see if you get any interest?  I currently only have 3 complete songs. It takes me ages just to produce one song. could I start ‘testing the water’ with those 3 or as I said before, should I produce enough for an album first?

Another factor is I have just turned 50. So it’s a bit of a joke for me to even think of getting anywhere in this fantastically competitive market.  I guess the most I might be able to hope for would be to sell some of these songs for another artist. 

Any advice on which record labels to approach would also help. Is it worth even trying some of the big labels?

Any advice would be welcome.. Many thanks!

[Boydie]

If you are looking to sell "songs" (rather than yourself as an artist or singer/songwriter) then the normal route is to approach PUBLISHERS and seek a "publishing deal" rather than a "record deal"

If you were successful in pitching your songs to a publisher they may offer you a deal (either for "you" and all your songs or for a single song)

There is not usually an "advance" and the publisher would usually take 50% of future royalties

A reputable publisher will NEVER ask you for money so if this is put on the table you should proceed with extreme caution - a common scam is a reply that goes along the lines of "we love your songs but they need to be re-recorded - pay us ££££ and we will do this for you"

There are companies that offer this service (ie working up pitchable demos - as do I, for a very reasonable rate  ) and that is fine if that is what they are offering - but be wary of so-called publishers saying they can produce your music at YOUR cost

If they believe in the song enough they will offer a better solution


The publisher would then pitch the song to labels, artists, managers etc. as they should have better contacts

Is it normal practice to send out demos with the idea that if anyone liked the songs enough, they could be re-worked with pros to a professional level?

In today's market I would say definitely not - you need to be pitching "radio ready" demos - ie up to a quality where they can be put straight on the radio

You will be pitching to "business men" and not "artists" or "musicians" so you need to give them the "finished product" and not rely on hoping they could imagine what the song could sound like with a pro production

I don’t have enough knowledge to produce music to a finished level but I think they are just about good enough as demos.

The chances are they are not - and without a "finished product" to pitch you will be wasting your time

I would rather be honest with you now

I would be happy to have a listen and give you an honest opinion but from what you are saying I think your demos will need some "shaping up" before they are good enough to pitch

I would also be happy to help you with this if you want it - just drop me a PM'

Is the normal procedure to have enough songs for an album (10 - 14 songs?) before submitting, and to then submit 2 or 3 of your best works to see if you get any interest?

It is normal to pitch 2 or 3 of your very best songs - I would then also have some more "up your sleeve" as if you do get a nibble from a publisher they are likely to ask what else you have and you ant want to wait for weeks and months until your write and record something else)

Another factor is I have just turned 50. So it’s a bit of a joke for me to even think of getting anywhere in this fantastically competitive market.  I guess the most I might be able to hope for would be to sell some of these songs for another artist. 

I think you are right - pitching songs is your best shot at success

The beauty of pitching songs is that it is only the SONG that matters - it doesn't matter if you 50, 80 or 100 years old - if you can write a HIT song then you stand a chance

The industry is ultra competitive BUT there is a shortage of HIT songs and if you have one of these very rare gems then you will stand a chance

For me, a hit song needs to be something that sounds like what is in the charts right now - both the groove, vibe, feel, production, structure etc.

This is a BUSINESS so even if you have a fantastic song it is likely to be overlooked if it will not fit into what is currently selling

Labels and artists are looking for songs that SELL, not necessarily good songs - whether you agree wih this or not that is the case at the moment

[S.T.C]

I agree with Boydie ...personal honesty is needed here..do you think you have the quality to have a record label spend money on you and use their valuable time?

If on the other hand you think you have great songs, then reputable publishers should be the ones to contact,and then they will tap up any labels that they have contacts with.......you must have near as dammit high quality recordings...they will not sit there and speculate the quality of the song..it must be evident to them.......

I'm certainly paying for my education with all this....you could get your songs..heard by pro's (for a cost) but would tell you if you are on to something or not.

[markbriscoe]

Thanks Boydie and STC for writing so much detailed info/advice, the other day.  Yes I’ve had my fingers burnt in the past by paying art galleries to take my paintings. Hopefully I won’t be doing the same again with music. 

Probably these songs are not “radio ready” … I always cringe listening to my own vocals but I’ve had good feedback on the boards here :-) and I do generally lack self-confidence, but I know it doesn’t necessarily mean the songs are good enough to pitch. They have had some basic mastering.

Anyway, I’ve put 2 song links below that you may have already heard from these boards.

https://soundcloud.com/mark-briscoe-3/a-day-of-rage-1
https://soundcloud.com/mark-briscoe-3/pillar-of-my-life

They may not fit into what is happening in the charts these days. There may still be a market for this kind of feel.  I don’t know much of what is happening in modern music trends these days. For me 95% of modern pop I hear is a complete load of cxxp…  I do completely understand what you said that this is just a BUSINESS and to a degree one has to conform to what is currently SELLING to stand any chance of getting a foot in.

[Onelabel]

I have to say that you're not right about that 95% remark. In reality there's a hell of a lot of quality chart music out there and we should resist the temptation to knock it - even if it's not our personal taste.

If you take the time to really look at Pop that sells it's clear there's a clear formula in there (or numbers of formulas). Not just in structure but also melodic styles, use of lyric patterns etc. but the songs that are good, are VERY good.

Take a few songs 'by' major artists and you see the same writer names coming up again and again (Max Martin, Dr Luke, Stargate, Bonnie McKee, etc etc.). Even 'able' songwriters like Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Marina Diamond etc.are still turning to these established teams to deliver their next hit. And deliver they do since although the 'rules' of a hit song seem clear, as we all know they're incredibly difficult to emulate.

So to me the real frustration is that so many times when I hear a breakthrough song from a new artist, or an existing band (say Maroon 5) -  that these SAME writing names keep coming up. The music business is now so risk-averse that labels/management simply don't bother to look outside of their established circles (nor trust the writing ability of the band they're trying to launch)

And that's the challenge for songwriters today. IMO to break through into these inner circles, new songwriters need to write an absolutely amazing song. The bar has really been raised.

[S.T.C]

Well i am one that monitors the top 20 now, i didn't, but realise that if i'm not writing lyrics and structure to current styles ,i'm not in the game....which as you point out is well sown up by these songwriting monopolies . And if creating a great song is the 'key to the kingdom' that's flipping hard to achieve , even for them.....i notice from looking at YOUTube  views ,these artists and their writers are almost guaranteed that their song will do well ,but when a real hit is created the count goes through the roof........

The quote i tend to believe is..you don't get discovered, you get noticed...quality songwriting,consistent songwriting,ability to produce catchy contemporary songs...gives you a fighting chance....you really have to be invited in,that's what i also believe .....you have to be useful to them.

[Onelabel]

The quote i tend to believe is..you don't get discovered, you get noticed...quality songwriting,consistent songwriting,ability to produce catchy contemporary songs...gives you a fighting chance....you really have to be invited in,that's what i also believe .....you have to be useful to them.

I completely agree and that certainly backs up the experience of myself and those around me. You have to be consistently writing extremely strong songs.

[DevyE]

Hi Onelabel

Could you give us more information on your experiences and of those around you. The following questions come to mind and your answers could be very helpful to many on the forum :-


1) How do you or those around you know you are consistently writing strong songs?

2) Who has told you or those around you that you are writing extremely strong songs?

3) What advice can you give to others on how to determine whether a song is extremely strong or not?

4) How has writing extremely strong songs helped you get noticed, e.g playing them live with A&R in the audience maybe?

5) Do you or those around you have recording/publishing deals and have any of these songs been recorded by mainstream artists?

6) Are you or those around you now making a living from writing or performing your songs, if so how?

Thanks in advance.

[S.T.C]

not sure Onelabel is claiming he and his buds are consistently writing strong songs ,but they realise that ,that is a minimum standard to be A' level songwriters?

My opinion having spent time studying the charts is 1) the best production you can achieve 2) catchy hook/hooks 3) clever music,great arrangement 4) knowing what dope means.

Peoples general reaction to your song tells you a lot i would say...look at the FB...

Theres songs in the charts were you can all find this...

[Onelabel]

Yes S.T.C. is correct, I'm not trying to suggest we're "consistently writing extremely strong songs" - I'd hope that if we had then we'd have decent publishing/recording deals is place.

But to answer your questions:
1) As above, we're not - however have had songs played on BBC Radio 1 several times (and other major UK stations) by several independent artists. This has led to opportunities for those artists including BBC Introducing at Glastonbury/ Reading & Leeds / Tea in the Park etc. Plus Sync placing on TV shows (C4, MTV etc.) and some tv adverts (not major)

2) As above, but its all about consistency. Have had meetings with several major labels (by invitation). However the market has changed drastically over recent years. Majors (and most major owned indie's) are looking for artists with a "significant" (read "big") following - both touring and social media.
In discussions with a couple of major publishers - key to them is the writers ability to get their work in front of major artists, or demonstrated (chart) success. Their most successful writers are often able to get their songs placed themselves (and here's me thinking that was their job!)

3) Play it to as many people as you can and listen to their comments (this is a good place). Remember that most people will be nice and unfortunately that doesn't help you a lot. Collaborate with other writers. Find someone who's opinion you really trust and ask how it compares against your "best" song(other writers tend to be more honest!). Keep working on a song, if the verse is great but the chorus only good then rewrite!. Keep writing and keep collaborating.

When you have a song that you believe is ready then get it recorded professionally. If your voice is only okay (like mine) then work with someone who can sing it the way you're imagining it (session singer or otherwise). Work with them to record it in a key that suits their voice (sounds obvious but someone I know was not prepared to budge on this and his songs suffered accordingly)

4) Getting noticed is all about exposure. Get that and at least they will want to talk with you. However getting them to the point where they're prepared to invest in you is a huge step - see 2 above. The advice I've heard from many people is "you need to make it so they HAVE to sign you - there is no other choice for them"

5) Something I've not mentioned are sync deals. We've had quite a bit of success from those (a few thousand quid a year) and the contacts we've made within this area have been very valuable  - plus its been enjoyable work. A girl we knew wrote a track for the sync agency she was working for (one of the smaller London agencies, not the TAXI kind of agency) and it was picked up by a major brand for a new product launch and it charted (around 20 so not top-10). She got a recording and publishing deal off that back of that - essentially it was the exposure that tipped her over the edge.

6) The ones who are making a decent living from music are devoting 99% of their time to Sync.  Their output is massive (5 tracks per week average), and well beyond what I would want to do (or are capable of)

Hope this helps.