A new project for 2018

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Ramshackles

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« on: December 27, 2017, 09:15:11 AM »
Some of you might know that one of my projects is a webshop selling circuit boards for DIYing your own recording equipment.
For 2018 we have decided to start developing a 'proper' (as in ready made :D) product aimed at home recordists.

It is tentatively called the "Whernside" and here is a quick rundown of the planned features:

- 4 high quality, super clean, low noise mic preamps, with individual phantom power.
- Monitor controller (i.e a big volume knob)
- 2 headphone outputs with independent gain.

Apart from a big knob for the monitor volume, there will be *no* controls. Instead, you will control it via a mobile app and/or a VST plugin. I've decided to go this way for 2 reasons:

1. Everytime I'm recording, I'm either recording myself and have to constantly put my instrument down and go over to the preamp to make changes, or I'm sat at the computer and the preamp is on a rack/underneath or not completely visible. I'd much rather just whip out my phone whereever I am sat/stood and view the meters, set the gain etc...

2. Knobs (and the extra circuitry it requires) quickly drive up the cost of making an audio unit. Getting rid of them completely will let us make it cheaper.

We are aiming for a very attractive price point. So I wanted to ask all you guys 3 questions:

1. Does it sound useful/cool/something you would like?
2. Any features you think it really needs?
3. What kind of price do you think such a unit is worth? (Loaded question I know)

Boydie

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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 11:11:39 AM »
This sounds really interesting!

I would personally like each input to be the XLR/jack socket combo type so that a mic or instrument (or mic with Jack lead) could be connected - e.g.:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/4487237/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-PLA_UK_EN_Connectors-_-Audio_And_Video_Connectors-_-PRODUCT+GROUP&matchtype=&gclid=CjwKCAiApo3SBRA4EiwAty8i-g1Zdgh-G5uMYncBfd-DAaJ5c6wNPFOGq6XHt5Bt8mmOGLNUYQNYyxoCNBwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Would it open a can of worms to make the unit an audio interface (would it be a nightmare coming up with low latency drivers and incorporating AD/DA converters?

If not would the advantage of fantastic pre-amps be lost if you then need to plug the unit in to a separate audio interface, which may not have such good pre-amps (especially as you are aiming at home studios)

I would personally miss individual gain knobs for the pre-amps - but I think a remote control option such as an app (or the pc/mac) could be an interesting innovation

How much extra would it cost to put a tube/valve option into the circuit (e.g. A single tube that could be switched in or bypassed)

It seems to me that adding a tube would give the unit some extra desirability as many home recordings chase that "analogue warmth" - although I think the "perception" would have more impact than the actual sound quality - but business is business and if it costs a few quid to add a tube then I am sure the price increase would more than offset this

As for price it would depend on the quality of sound but if it were a pukka pre-amp AND acted as an audio interface with good drivers I would say (off the top of my head without looking at competitors) a price point around £600 - £1,000 for a "boutique" unit would be about right if it were proven to be high quality (i.e. A couple of good reviews in industry magazines, blogs, websites etc.)
To check out my music please visit:

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Martinswede

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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 12:05:08 PM »
The whole idea of making it easier to record on your own sounds appealing.

If the inputs on the preamp had a pre stage that normalized input volume/amplitude and the phone connected to the daw it might be worthwhile. In a sense two different products. (Not sure if replacing knobs with wireless would be cost effective in small scale production.)

I don't know if any daw software is open for independent plugins for bluetooth connectivity.

Ramshackles

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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 11:45:21 AM »
Loads of good questions boydie!
I'll try to answer them:

- Adding AD/DA. This is a a question I am pondering and pondering. Yes, it is an extra technical challenge, but all that does it add a little more work to do. The main problems we would have are
    - Will it all fit in our intended enclosure (making the enclosure bigger would increase price :D)
    - Can it be done for our intended price point

I need to work that out. It might be that we would have to lose 2 of the preamps to accomodate. Or just increase the price point a little. One thing I can appreciate for the home recordist is that it makes the workflow more complex to not have an 'all in one' box, and potentially more pricey.
Another option to look at is having 2 preamps plus audio interface with the possibility to extend the number of mic inputs with 'satellite' units.

It wouldn't lose the advantage of good preamps to plugin into the line inputs of a separate audio interface. (Unless the line inputs and/or A/D conversion of the audio interface was particularly crappy, but you would still see the difference between using these mic preamps as opposed to the builtin preamps of the audio interface).

Tube/Valve option.
Bottom line here is it will increase the price significantly since tubes are 'expensive' (probably about £8-10 per tube) but mainly because they need different supply voltages so its a whole technical challenge.
A less technically difficult option, which could be done easily as an 'upgrade' option would be to offer transformer balanced outputs on the preamps. This would be very easy to do from a technical point of view and add all the pleasing aural benefits of transformers. It would still add about £50 per channel for a good transformer however, but we can do the basic unit in such a way that you could pop out the existing line driver and pop in a transformer if yourself, or offer a 'modern' and 'vintage' option.


I can talk about what the actual preamp will entail if it is of interest.
The mic preamp will be built around the THATCorp 1580 chip. This offers *incredibly* low noise (-134.8dbU at 40db of gain) and THD (0.0005%). To put this into context, the UAD Apollo Quad interface uses TI PGA2500 chips for its preamps which have -128dbU of noise at 30db of gain. Bottom line is we are confident of getting high end preamp specifications in what we think can be a mid to low end price.

I think one of the closest competitors could be the SPL Crimson, which is a very good unit. Here is a review:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/spl-crimson

The main differences with what we are doing:

- We are aiming at slightly better preamp performance
- We will be offering 4 mic inputs, SPL offers 2 mic inputs and 2 instrument inputs. I think adding 1 or 2 instrument inputs to ours could be a quick win.
- SPL has the A/D conversion
- We will have the remote control via your phone, ipad or DAW. While SPL has the 'tactile' or gratifying advantage of knobs & buttons, I think the advantages of remote control far outweigh the extra cost of working in all those analogue control. For example, a phone app could offer much better metering for each channel or the ability to save settings etc.
- SPL has another speaker output so you can switch between your A and B speakers. This is something we have considered but are unsure of - is it useful to the home recordist? (It is potentially useful to me for example)
- SPL has a couple of extra small features such as a 'dim' button on the monitor, high pass filters on the preamps

And of course, the main thing we are competing with versus SPL and any other audio company is the fact that we dont have the 'might' of an established company to fund mass production and so on. We are doing it piecemeal, bit by bit :D
In which case features such as output transformers might just give us that edge?

Ramshackles

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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 11:54:43 AM »
The whole idea of making it easier to record on your own sounds appealing.

If the inputs on the preamp had a pre stage that normalized input volume/amplitude and the phone connected to the daw it might be worthwhile. In a sense two different products. (Not sure if replacing knobs with wireless would be cost effective in small scale production.)

I don't know if any daw software is open for independent plugins for bluetooth connectivity.

Hey
Can you elaborate a bit on the pre stage that normalises volume? I'm not sure I quite understand.

To answer your other questions:
- Replacing knobs with wireless. Actually incredibly cost effective. Knobs (and the potentiometers and circuitry that go behind them) are expensive and also another potential source of noise and failure. In comparison an onboard chip to interface with bluetooth/wireless and offer digital control (we are looking at using the Onion Omega2) is relatively cheap. The 'only' cost with developing the phone/daw plugin is my time :D. This makes prototyping far less expensive, it makes it cheaper to assemble units and it makes the enclosure less expensive (CNC companies will charge you by the number and size of cutouts/holes they need to make).

- Not being access wireless/bluetooth from DAW. You can...you can do anything that the computer allows you to, basically. A VST plugin is just a little library which uses an interface exposed by the DAW (e.g the VST API by Steinberg) to talk to the DAW. Outside of that library you can program anything you are able to program for the target machine (it is just C++ after all).

So other than having to learn a lot of new things, there should be no problem there :D

Boydie

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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 01:28:48 PM »
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It might be that we would have to lose 2 of the preamps to accomodate. Or just increase the price point a little.

I think increasing the price point a little would be the best option as a 2 channel interface may not be a good "all in one" - 4 audio channels with kick ass pre-amps that can record directly into a daw would cover most bases IMHO

Quote
Another option to look at is having 2 preamps plus audio interface with the possibility to extend the number of mic inputs with 'satellite' units.

This sounds an interesting approach - I am not aware of any "expandable" audio interfaces so could be a potential USP (Unique Selling Proposition to stand out from the competition)

I wonder if it could fit/work with the 500 series module form factor??

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but we can do the basic unit in such a way that you could pop out the existing line driver and pop in a transformer if yourself, or offer a 'modern' and 'vintage' option.

As long as it is "plug in" with no soldering or technical knowledge I think this would be a GENIUS option and another USP for your product

Your pre-amp specs look AMAZING and it is these kind of figures that would generate interest from industry magazines and blogs for reviews - which is exactly what you would need to launch a new product like this

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We will be offering 4 mic inputs, SPL offers 2 mic inputs and 2 instrument inputs. I think adding 1 or 2 instrument inputs to ours could be a quick win.

I think one combi "Stereo/Mono" or 2 mono would be a great addition

Quote
We will have the remote control via your phone, ipad or DAW. While SPL has the 'tactile' or gratifying advantage of knobs & buttons, I think the advantages of remote control far outweigh the extra cost of working in all those analogue control. For example, a phone app could offer much better metering for each channel or the ability to save settings etc.

This is ANOTHER USP for your product - as long as the pre-amps can be controlled by the device it is connected to (ie PC, MAC, iPad etc.) then this could be awesome as the current "rule of thumb" is that RECORDING volume is only changed by the knob on the audio interface

Coming up with a new way of doing this would be another interesting innovation for your product

I would just advise that it should be able to be controlled by the device it is connected to (as well as by an ipad, iphone, android) because not everyone wants to faff with ANOTHER device so I think it would be a bad thing if it was not possible to control directly from the DAW / PC / MAC the device is connected to


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- SPL has another speaker output so you can switch between your A and B speakers. This is something we have considered but are unsure of - is it useful to the home recordist? (It is potentially useful to me for example)

I personally don't think so - as long as it has a headphone and 1 speaker output you will be fine. There are plenty of options to add a multi-speaker selector if anyone wanted one for a relatively modest extra cost to attach it to your unit

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- SPL has a couple of extra small features such as a 'dim' button on the monitor, high pass filters on the preamps

Not needed IMHO - this can all be done "in the box" - just making your product a simple way of capturing a high quality recording and getting "in the box" is what your product should be so having this clear focus justifies removing these "bells and whistles" (IMHO), which could potentially harm a recording going in to the box so it can't be undone

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And of course, the main thing we are competing with versus SPL and any other audio company is the fact that we dont have the 'might' of an established company to fund mass production and so on. We are doing it piecemeal, bit by bit Cheesy
In which case features such as output transformers might just give us that edge?

I actually think you have enough interesting "innovation", USP and impressive enough specs to get some real interest from the big magazines and blogs

The only problem you will have is being able to "give away" units for proper reviews - but I still think you have enough of a USP to generate interest

Even with my most skeptical and critical heads on I think you could be really on to something here!!

Good luck and please keep us posted

To check out my music please visit:

http://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BoydieMusic

Martinswede

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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 08:41:27 PM »
What I meant was that if you can give the unit a mode to register an input peak level and then set the preamp to accommodate it it would take away a lot of manual adjustment. Maybe just sci fi. Maybe just jibberish.