The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: andy5544 on March 16, 2012, 01:58:30 PM
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I'm in one of those moods , I sit here writing and recording songs that , if i'm honest , nobody is ever going to listen too apart from a few guys on the forum , if they feel the urge to click , and a few family members.
I don't gig , and the people that i know that do gig play covers or no one will hire them , slip one of there own tunes in now and again .
i tell myself it's creative , artistic , a hobby , better than watching tv.
all of the above are true , but i still sit here thinking .. "why bother?"
someone please give me a kick up the arse !!!!!! :(
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I'm in one of those moods , I sit here writing and recording songs that , if i'm honest , nobody is ever going to listen too apart from a few guys on the forum , if they feel the urge to click , and a few family members.
I don't gig , and the people that i know that do gig play covers or no one will hire them , slip one of there own tunes in now and again .
i tell myself it's creative , artistic , a hobby , better than watching tv.
all of the above are true , but i still sit here thinking .. "why bother?"
someone please give me a kick up the arse !!!!!! :(
I totally understand that feeling, but (I guess here's the kick up the ...) most anything that's worth doing is hard/frustrating/etc. Get out and play your music, no matter what. There's an open-mic night in my town where I've played a few times and they are fine with originals. What does your town offer? I've decided to do all I can to try and take my music somewhere other than just the Internet. I WILL find other players to gig and record with! So help me... I know I won't be playing at Glasto someday, but I don't really care. I love writing songs and making music and the rooms of my flat are starting to feel too small! :)
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:) I know how you feel mate.
From my late teens onwards I have suffered with Social phobia and agoraphobia. The last time I did a gig
which was over twenty years ago I suffered so much from the stress and stage fright (although I got through the performance)
that I gave it up. Didn't bother writing for nearly twenty years. Just picked my guitar up for a mess about every now and then.
I was feeling brave last year and even formed a band out of good friends that I have had for years who are all in other bands. Two of them
were in a relationship and they started to not get on so that fell apart. I was trying to push myself to get enough confidence to face my fears.
Right now at this moment though I am as bad as I have ever been. I struggle to even walk the half mile to school to pick my daughter up because
of the panic attacks that grip me when I go outside.
On here it is different. You have time to think and no one is sat staring at you waiting for you to answer.
So. I feel the same way you do, very much so. Only friends, the odd family member and you guys on here will probably ever hear my songs.
I'd love for someone else to use them. But because of the style of my songs I don't think they are the kind that anyone would look for
to place with an artist or band. I think most bands will probably write their own stuff anyway. So that's it... stuck.
BUT... writing these songs is probably one of the only things keeping me sane right now. The feeling of accomplishment is great. When you are
a creative spirit and music is in your soul I think it is very difficult to want to do or be anything else.
And even if it is just a hobby... what a belter. Not many hobbies will bring you such satisfaction. You are doing something that the majority
of people wouldn't have a clue about or where to start.
And at the end of the day, as long as you get it up on soundcloud, youtube, soundclick, numubu, myspace, music x-ray or any other platform you can think of, and
spend time forging friendships and getting your music heard by as many people as possible, there is always the chance that you will become popular or even be discovered.
There's a lot out there so the effort is needed to push.
If you don't have a social phobia then I would get yourself out. Get to an open mic night. Even if you don't play. Get a feel for it, chat to some of the musicians.
Talk about what you do and write. See if there are any other people in your area who are looking to do something simillar.
Place an add in locl papar or in music shop or in the local supermarket. See what responce you get to it. Singer/guitarist/songwriter with good material looking to form a band.
Need...Bassist, drummer... whatever.
If you don't give it your full energy. If you don't push you won't get anywhere. And then the seconds and the days just become past and eventually it's too late. And you'll look back
when you get even older :P and think. Why didn't I just get up and walk out of the house and do it. Pro-active!
I guess you have to come to terms with how far you want things to go. If you think that it will remain a hobby then be at peace with that and enjoy it as a hobby.
If you want more... Then go and get it!
;D
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yeah had one of those moments the other night ;D
but if you really believe you can make good music you have to believe in your self.
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It's something every songwriter comes up against every now and again. Why do we write songs?
I write for a lot of reasons, one of which is a simple love for the song form, and the joy I feel when I discover a fine melody, and an emotive harmonic movement. But I also write songs because I like to play them for other people. Another reason is I'm not very good at expressing myself (my deeper, emotional self) in conversation, so songwriting is a kind of therapy for me.
Will many people hear my songs? Realistically, probably not. But your audience is often what you make it. I go out and play gigs/ open mics most weeks. Open mics are brilliant because I play all my own material. Gigs are different. We throw in a few originals, but mostly it's just the same old same old. I only play the gigs because I get to go out with my best mate and we have a good laugh.
But there are folks on the local music scene who will only play their own music. They don't get as many gigs, but they do get to play. The trick is to just get out there, meet the people who make your local scene happen. Once they get to know you, opportunities will present themselves. I'd only been playing at my open mic for about 4 months when I was asked to play at a charity night where Bob Harris (whispering bob) would be in the audience. As it happened, he didn't turn up till after I played, but it was well worth doing.
I'm a firm believer in the idea that you make your own success. Perseverance is the key. It's normal to become discouraged from time to time. Just take a night off, get some sleep, and pick yourself up again tomorrow.
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I've got a lot of sympathy with how you feel Andy. I don't have any interest in making music which no-one will hear: it only makes any sense to me if it has an audience. For that reason, Ive gone through massively long periods without writing anything at all. I've been a (poor) professional musician since about 1981 and done a whole heap of cover gigs in the time since then - and that's fine I still enjoy it - but of course my passion is writing and recording my own stuff.
However, having a foot in each camp only serves to highlight the difference between the two worlds. Several of the cover bands I've been in have enjoyed a decent following and I suppose I'm a pretty familiar face in this area as a 'rock' guitar player - but my personal taste in music is not very aligned with the music I'm known for playing. Not that I don't like playing 'classic rock', as it seems to have become known latterly , but it's not what I listen to out of choice and it's not what influences and underpins my own material. Consequently, a lot of people don't understand eden (my own band) and I think a common response is probably 'What's he doing that stuff for - where's the Gary Moore songs' lol. Mind you it's the same with Youtube in a way - I can put up a video of some blues twiddling, the sort of thing I can do in my sleep, and get several thousand hits, whereas often even followers of the cover bands cant even bring themselves to click 'like' on the original material ones that we sweat blood into.
When I started the band, I vowed not to compromise and to write and play entirely from the heart, but It's a hard path to tread.
Mind you , even the covers gigs have taken a heavy knock these days since the huge growth in home entertainment and the smoking ban. These days we are still playing in pubs for £180 for the band which is what we were on 20 years ago. Own-material gigs are harder to come by and when you do get them you have to work to get a crowd.
Consequently, I go through real 'why bother' slumps. It's impossible to judge the value of your own work, but I think eden is a good band and I'd like to think the songs are strong - but I do go through a lot of self-doubt about it and do seriously consider knocking it on the head often.
I see enormously talented friends in the same position too and I think there's a lot of factors at work. A lot people have become very lazy in their listening habits and want instant gratification either from 'songs they know' or they want to be dazzled by obviously flash musicianship. The days when you bought an album, weren't sure about it at first, but after repeated listens it became a thing of wonder (Radiohead: OK Computer for example) seem to have gone, and now it's about grabbing someone in the first few seconds or they move on to something else on the iPod or Spotify.
This probably reads as a bit self-pitying because I'm in a similar mood to you at the moment - but ultimately Tone is right - I expect I'll dust myself off tomorrow and get on with it again.
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If you are upset about no one hearing your music, go out and get people to hear it :D Play live, make a CD, send it to radio stations etc etc whatever.
If the fact that no one is listening to your music makes you want to give up, do you really love music? :D
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Just enjoy it Andy - we've all been there
I booked a wee half day yesterday for some music time - I sent 3 hours mixing a song going round in circles and at the end I had to scrap eveything - relaxing it was not
But it's got me closer to where I need to be
It's spiritual I think, playing & writing - like the idea that even if it's just your family or Freinds your songs can make an impact
I am hoping my children cheerish my songs - if my dad had handed down something like this I would be very happy
'making it' shouldn't be the end goal in my opinion - just make the best music you can :)
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Thanks everyone for your wise words of encouragement , even after starting this thread yesterday morning ,last night i was sat in my little room working out things for the next song ,
it's better than sitting in front of the box watching the latest piece of reality garbage on tv.
as far as getting out and playing live goes i really wouldn't be able to fit it in ,i have to work to keep the roof over our heads , a couple of hours in the evening is all i have spare and i know how hard you have to practice to get a band sounding half decent,
so i think i'm over my wobble now , thanks guys ;D
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I only usually get that feeling when recording and not being able to produce what I can hear in my head well enough.
I don't think I could ever really get fed up with the whole writing part. At least I haven't so far in 18 years.
I'm going to be harsh but I'd say if your heart is not in something, don't do it. Even if it's just for a week. Songwriting is not like working in a factory, you are doing it because you enjoy it. Maybe if you are not enjoying it, it's best not to force yourself until you feel the urge again. I pick up the guitar pretty much every day but I often find I am more creative after not playing it for a few days because I missed it.
For me, I haven't given up on my ambition to be a professional songwriter (writing for artists) even though everyone I know wouldn't put £1 on me achieving that. I know in my heart I can do it and for me it's all about writing better and better songs, perfecting the craft because I know that inside me is at least one song that could be successful. Maybe it won't happen for 10 years, maybe never but I am not going to stop until I have exhausted all of my options.
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I understand the feeling. I can't say I've overly experienced it though. I had a few brushes with it last year when I found I was out of a band that had only played two gigs anyway but all in all it wasn't that bad.
The way I decide to look at it is from the other angle. If it wasn't for this forum I'd still be doing a few of the same old things. I'd be sitting around writing the odd song, revealing them to a trusted few and getting literally nothing in terms of feedback (friends rarely want to offend).
I was in the band when I found this forum but frankly it gave me a place where I could post lyrics for review and get some feedback from people who knew more than I did and were a combination of realistic and encouraging. Honestly, had it not been for that I wouldn't have had the confidence to put lyrics forward to the band shamelessly, I would have gone 'I dunno, I like them I guess' and so forth and littered every proposal with qualifiers to avoid judgement.
Because of this place I can wear my songs proudly, even if they're not as good as they could be.
Point number two is a bit different.
if you believe your music has a message that deserves to be heard then the world is a wide open place with wide open ears. if you're stuck thinking 'what's the point?' then need to sort yourself into one of two categories.
1 - It's a hobby and/or outlet and you do it because of the personal satisfaction, though you may also enjoy the extra satisfaction of other people listening to it.
2 - It's something you want to do as more than a hobby, in which case you need to fight for it. If the circumstances don't allow for you to pursue your music in any way other than a hobby then change your circumstances. If you're in a band start making big pushes and serious moves. Record an album. Whether or not it goes anywhere is irrelevant, record another. Keep at it. You may never make it but you definitely won't unless you kick and scream.
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we all need to look at the type of music we`re trying to create.......if having a hit song or commercial success is important.....
i`ve been on a couple of songwriting sites and the song submissions vary in quality , but one thing always stands out(a lot of the time),,,it`s old hat.
, sorry if that sounds harsh....but the 70`s have gone.....i don`t mean lets all get into hiphop or rap, but think up something that todays market will want......i have a song and if i found a couple of young black and white kids....with a boy and a girl that could sing,paid good musicians to do the music,and paid a production company the money to do a vid, stuck it on youtube and itunes.i think it would do well,but i haven`t got that sort of money to experiment with at the moment....the songs called ice cream girl and it would be aimed at the 10 to16 yr old music fan. 8)
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I hear what you're saying songsthatcry, but not all of us want to appeal to 10 year olds. Personally I'm of the opinion that good songwriting is never old hat. Production styles come and go like hairstyles, but good songwriting remains good songwriting.
Also, most of us are in the same boat as you: we don't have heaps of cash to throw at our music projects, so most of them end up as solo projects where we do nearly everything.
The problem with thinking up "something that today's market will want" is that by the time you get anywhere with it, the market will have moved on. I find this a very cynical approach to making music, and one that's destined to produce music that lacks the most important ingredient (for me): authenticity.
The more artists that play to 'the market' (which lets face it is wholly dictated by CEOs and execs who know little about music and a lot about marketing) the longer this dry spell in pop music is going to continue.
A case in point. Listen to Gotye's somebody you used to know song and compare it to Rihanna's new song. The former has energy, sparkle, originality, melody, imagination. Rihanna is predictable, insipid, repetitive and more than a little boring.
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I hear what you're saying songsthatcry, but not all of us want to appeal to 10 year olds. Personally I'm of the opinion that good songwriting is never old hat. Production styles come and go like hairstyles, but good songwriting remains good songwriting.
Also, most of us are in the same boat as you: we don't have heaps of cash to throw at our music projects, so most of them end up as solo projects where we do nearly everything.
The problem with thinking up "something that today's market will want" is that by the time you get anywhere with it, the market will have moved on. I find this a very cynical approach to making music, and one that's destined to produce music that lacks the most important ingredient (for me): authenticity.
The more artists that play to 'the market' (which lets face it is wholly dictated by CEOs and execs who know little about music and a lot about marketing) the longer this dry spell in pop music is going to continue.
A case in point. Listen to Gotye's somebody you used to know song and compare it to Rihanna's new song. The former has energy, sparkle, originality, melody, imagination. Rihanna is predictable, insipid, repetitive and more than a little boring.
totally agree , well said that man !!
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I hear what you're saying songsthatcry, but not all of us want to appeal to 10 year olds. Personally I'm of the opinion that good songwriting is never old hat. Production styles come and go like hairstyles, but good songwriting remains good songwriting.
Also, most of us are in the same boat as you: we don't have heaps of cash to throw at our music projects, so most of them end up as solo projects where we do nearly everything.
The problem with thinking up "something that today's market will want" is that by the time you get anywhere with it, the market will have moved on. I find this a very cynical approach to making music, and one that's destined to produce music that lacks the most important ingredient (for me): authenticity.
The more artists that play to 'the market' (which lets face it is wholly dictated by CEOs and execs who know little about music and a lot about marketing) the longer this dry spell in pop music is going to continue.
A case in point. Listen to Gotye's somebody you used to know song and compare it to Rihanna's new song. The former has energy, sparkle, originality, melody, imagination. Rihanna is predictable, insipid, repetitive and more than a little boring.
Well i hear you as well..i did make the point that if you want success,something that appeals to todays market is probably what we need to write.....i`m not a big fan of modern music,most of my cds are form the 60`s to the nineties ...bought the fleetfoxes and smoke faries last yr,,which are good modern....i`m not sure the good old days are coming back?,theres still plenty of good bands out there,.good music hasn`t died...but its`like you say, in the hands of money making executives .
Maybe i am being cynical ,maybe this site nurtures the spirit of the arts and crafts movement(i watch floggit)....
I want to achieve some sort of success as a songwriter,if i can....and i`m afraid i look at the popular market and i think like simon cowell.....i used to write all sorts of stuff,even got an epic one called `gavreal, the giver of gold...probably longer than freebird .
I don`t want to write for 10/16 yr olds,,but this tune came into my head and i wrote the lyrics ,and thats the age group that will enjoy it...and the ones that could make me a few quid......to me thats song writing....i`m not stuck in any particular genre..but thats me.
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just making music is the point!
and whether you call it
making music
or music making
doesn't make a difference
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this debate about old and new music has been around forever. My view is that you should write a good song. If it is good, you could produce it in any way you like, classical production, modern production.
I know people on here are very opinionated about the songwriting skills of Noel gallagher but I bought a CD of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra playing the songs of Oasis and was very impressed that some of the older Oasis songs could sound so timeless. Shows how if you have a good song to start with, it's what you do with it that counts. You can't polish a turd.
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Indeed, you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter, which I guess is what pop music is...
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Indeed, you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter, which I guess is what pop music is...
i can remember when pop music was awesome but i was young then so its hard to be realy objective about modern pop & not just act superior & say its total crap
anyway to the main question ...whats the point?
i think this a lot ......but i know that life is frustrating & mundane & life crushes you.... & my music is my way of saying something & making a noise & expressing myself...its realy like therapy & it almost makes me feel special that i am able to say something original & stand out from the crowd who just consume & use & arent capable of creating
& the other thing is i have to do it...... if i dont i feel empty & lost & worthless...........it seems to make life have more meaning to me
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I agree with you Tone completely.
More and more people are looking outside of the "pop charts".
It's so easy these days to go on sites like youtube, myspace and so on and surf for
music you would never have heard... and THAT is forcing some artists who were not getting a break
to get up there. And it's not all r&b rap techno dance jibberish either.
Plus you've got great bands like Elbow who's music certainly doesn't fit neatly into what you would
expect to typically hear in the pop charts.
There are so many artists who are poplular enough to be very well known and followed without making
it into the pop charts. There are other charts too!
The thing is if your music is real and it has your soul in it, and it's good, it won't really matter in which genre
it sits. People will like it.
I like to make music that is real to me, real to what turns me on in music. If I can stay with that rather than forcing myself to
write music that I certainly could write (and have) but which would be empty, then maybe people will hear the music has soul
and like it. I wouldn't give two hoots if they liked the one I wrote with no soul.
And don't forget that music is always going around in cycles, things come in and out of fashion just as they do with clothes.
Beck ventured into just about every style concievable (often many of them in one song :P) and he's a genius.
Right that's it, have had enough :P Off to the back door for a ciggie :)
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I hear what you're saying songsthatcry, but not all of us want to appeal to 10 year olds. Personally I'm of the opinion that good songwriting is never old hat. Production styles come and go like hairstyles, but good songwriting remains good songwriting.
Also, most of us are in the same boat as you: we don't have heaps of cash to throw at our music projects, so most of them end up as solo projects where we do nearly everything.
The problem with thinking up "something that today's market will want" is that by the time you get anywhere with it, the market will have moved on. I find this a very cynical approach to making music, and one that's destined to produce music that lacks the most important ingredient (for me): authenticity.
The more artists that play to 'the market' (which lets face it is wholly dictated by CEOs and execs who know little about music and a lot about marketing) the longer this dry spell in pop music is going to continue.
A case in point. Listen to Gotye's somebody you used to know song and compare it to Rihanna's new song. The former has energy, sparkle, originality, melody, imagination. Rihanna is predictable, insipid, repetitive and more than a little boring.
Interestingly, Gotyes song is based around a sample of 'Seville' by Luiz Bonfa....Im sure this fits into your point somehow :D
IMO, writing 'for the market' is a pointless exercise unless you are an established musician, and even then it is only for those with little integrity/love for music.
There are plenty of easier ways to make money. Perhaps it's because of the perceived glamour of the industry or something but there is always a misconception that once you have 'made it', it's an easy job.
Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.
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Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.
I don't understand how people can write songs they don't love, you know? If you're gonna sit in a room and play it a thousand times to your self, just to get it right, you've got to love it or you'd go mad.
Or you're a masochist
Peter
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Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.
Amen
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Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.
I don't understand how people can write songs they don't love, you know? If you're gonna sit in a room and play it a thousand times to your self, just to get it right, you've got to love it or you'd go mad.
Or you're a masochist
Peter
If you are a professional songwriter though, you may need to write pieces that you may not entirely enjoy. Do all songwriters consider all of their songs to be masterpieces? No. There's a real divide on here between people wanting to write for themselves and those who want to write for others.
I consider myself a songwriter but I am not writing for myself. I am writing because I want others to use my music. Therefore I need to tailor my songs to fit the end artist and therefore I begin at a different starting point to (it appears) anyone on this board.
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hehe. No, I completely understand your reasoning and ambition. About three years ago I thought the same thing.
I realised that it is very unlikely that I would ever be at the point where I would have the courage to go out
and perform my songs, so why not write songs that others would use. That inevitably made me think of writing popular songs.
Listening continuously to the top 40. Listening to what was new, what kind of synth sounds were fashionable and really
analyzing the pop charts.
There was a few things worng with that though - I don't like most of what's in the charts. And although "theoretically" they
are mostly simple songs. And quite easy to imitate without copying... To get the same sounds synth- wise, beat- wise and generally production- wise... especially on vocals,
is very hard and will cost a lot of money trying to keep up.
There are people who sit and churn out songs that mean absolutely nothing to them like they are sat on a factory production line. These are
usually knowledgable musicians who can keep repeating the same magic formular over and over. But the music is empty and soulless. Which is why
I rarely like what's in the charts.
If your music ( whether it sounds 70's 80's or whatever ) is good and has a vibe that people can catch and attach to you're onto a winner :)
Well that's my thoughts anyway :P
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You don't have to like what is in the charts or try to write something like that. The charts nowadays mean nothing. The UK charts appear to be aimed at/funded by pseudo-black 13 year olds. there is a big difference between what is in the current charts and what people over the age of 13 will pay for and attend gigs by.
At the moment I am focussed on writing songs that are comparable to those sung by Adele, Katie Melua, Alicia keys, Elbow, Ron Sexsmith etc. These lot sell a bunch of records, probably more than the fleeting pop/R&B/crap in the charts actually. Luckily we still have a good live circuit in this country but I have never seen a pub playling live R&B or pop... It's all guitar/keys and melodies.
As I said in an earlier thread, if you write traditional songs that sound great on one instrument, it can probably be produced in a million different ways according to the market into which you'd like the song placed. Don't bend over backwards to recreate a genre just to make money. Write what you enjoy and find a market for it. There are lots of amateur bands in this country that would love decent original songs to use to help them climb the ladder. There is work out there for the amateur songwriter.
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If you are a professional songwriter though, you may need to write pieces that you may not entirely enjoy. Do all songwriters consider all of their songs to be masterpieces? No. There's a real divide on here between people wanting to write for themselves and those who want to write for others.
I consider myself a songwriter but I am not writing for myself. I am writing because I want others to use my music. Therefore I need to tailor my songs to fit the end artist and therefore I begin at a different starting point to (it appears) anyone on this board.
You're possibly one of two actually. It was never my intention to be the artist when I started making music about three years ago. It was March last year that I decided there's no law against me becoming a professional songwriter and like you I've been studying how this industry works in order to give myself a fighting chance.
The only music I've put off limits to myself is music that comes from a culture or lifestyle that I've no experience of. I've no intention to emulate Plan B for example, or write for a teenage market (the kind of charts stuff that's getting a good kicking in this thread). But there's no chance of that anyway because your modern commercial pop is written like an American sitcom: teams of writer-producers like Xenomania, churning it out on a commissioned industrial scale.
But to return to the theme of the thread: what's the point? For me the point is hearing my own music and thinking I like that (the same feeling you get when an artist you like does something you enjoy.) I write the kind of music I like to listen to and some of it will probably never be performed by another artist -the DnB stuff for example- but there's synchronisation. Your music could be the soundtrack for the next Iron Man/Out of Africa/Prospero's Books* film (*Delete according to preference!)
It is frustrating not to get some feedback from strangers, but then the flipside is that strangers might tell it like it is. And we might not like what we hear.
Chris
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:D Xenophobia! (not sure is that was intentional or not!) :D ;)
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Just corrected it before I read your post. I was sitting here and thought 'hang on, it's mania, not phobia!! ;D
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If you are a professional songwriter though, you may need to write pieces that you may not entirely enjoy. Do all songwriters consider all of their songs to be masterpieces? No. There's a real divide on here between people wanting to write for themselves and those who want to write for others.
I consider myself a songwriter but I am not writing for myself. I am writing because I want others to use my music. Therefore I need to tailor my songs to fit the end artist and therefore I begin at a different starting point to (it appears) anyone on this board.
I dont know...in interviews with my favourite bands, they always say something along the lines of 'we dont really pay attention to other people...we just want to write what makes us happy'.
John Lennon said the beatles were just 'some guys playing rock n roll music'....and if they were only tailoring music 'for the market', their style would've never changed past 1963 :D
Goes back to the point that Tone made about authenticity. If you are writing a song in a certain style, just because thats the current market but someone else is writing a song in that style but because he loves it and thats his natural way of writing, who will come up with the better song, which song will be more authentic?
Even for those on this forum that are trying to make something of their music, I'd say just continue to write what you feel is good and interesting. And listen to as much music as possible inbetween :D