The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: tone on March 03, 2011, 02:49:49 PM
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Hello beautiful forum people :)
Before I launch into this post, can I just say what a pleasure it has been and still is to be connected with such a friendly and talented bunch on this forum. Thanks for all your input :D
Basically, what it says in the title: in your opinion, what are the ingredients of a good song? I know it can be hard to put your finger on, but that's what this post is about. Thinking about songs and identifying why one is better than another. I'm very interested in your thoughts on this, and I'm going to comment later when I've heard what you all have to say.
Thanks :)
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That is a very good question...
hard to put your finger on it, indeed
but let's see what we can come up with
mhh.... :-\
i have to get back on this one
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For me, personally:
A melody that can be sung separately from the song and still sounds like a song.
Music that can be played separately and is still attractive.
Lyrics that tell a story or lead the listener to want to hear more.
A musical hook that sounds sexy and dirty at the same time.
That is all.
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for me, a good song is heartfelt with emotion, be it metal or folk. an expression of a feeling with words and music that conveys that feeling well. well enough for me to think "i wish id written that"
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I guess something that speaks to you on a subconcious emotional level, I've always found that my favourite songs have always been the ones that can touch feelings that are not normally touched, something in the lyrics/chords/melody or all three that just works and really communicates. I guess the same can be said of many other artforms, I've always found the emotional rewards from music more satisfying though.
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That's like asking what is the answer to life the universe and everything! ;D
I like so many different stlyes and genre's of music and each one for different reasons.
A celver chord progression, a great arrangement, the lyrics, the vocal melody and/or harmonies. Sometimes because it's clever, sometimes because it grooves, sometimes because of the feel.
This is just too hard lol
It's 42 btw. :p
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Well if song sales are anything to go by recently, what makes a good song? Millions of pounds of publicity and hardly any talent!
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Well if song sales are anything to go by recently, what makes a good song? Millions of pounds of publicity and hardly any talent!
And that's partly my point. I don't think we can measure the quality of a song by the number of units it sells in today's market. So how do you 'quality control' your songs? Why are the best ones better than the average ones?
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I agree Tone,
Songwriting is an art form and therefore what makes it great is that we all have different opinions. If everyone agreed then music would become a factory industry. So in that sense there is no such thing as a good or bad song on average, but on a personal level, I think we all know deep down what we like to hear and why.
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On one hand I agree with you, but on the other I think there is such a thing as a bad song and a good song. And I think it's easier to judge a song on taste than on actual craftsmanship, but that's the conversation I'm trying to prompt :p
Surely you must have a personal list of required ingredients for your own songwriting?
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For me, personally:
A melody that can be sung separately from the song and still sounds like a song.
Music that can be played separately and is still attractive.
Lyrics that tell a story or lead the listener to want to hear more.
A musical hook that sounds sexy and dirty at the same time.
That is all.
I think Hofnerite made some very good points here about what makes a song a good song: especially the point about a melody that can be sung sparately from the song, and still sounding like a song, is criterium that seems to be true for most good songs, almost all them I think
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For me, personally:
A melody that can be sung separately from the song and still sounds like a song.
Music that can be played separately and is still attractive.
Lyrics that tell a story or lead the listener to want to hear more.
A musical hook that sounds sexy and dirty at the same time.
That is all.
I think Hofnerite made some very good points here about what makes a song a good song: especially the point about a melody that can be sung sparately from the song, and still sounding like a song, is criterium that seems to be true for most good songs, almost all them I think
Personally I think this is the main difference between Lennon and McCartney songs. Macca melodies are almost songs on their own while most of Lennon's (early stuff certainly) was musically great but melodically quite flat.
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I think the same is true if you compare their songs' harmonic structures too. Macca's songs move in interesting and unusual, but always smooth and engaging ways, whereas Lennon's are definitely more standard. I always felt Lennon relied on style to compete with Macca's substance.
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I agree, but John's style, his 'edge',
his personality,
his input was so extremely important to make the whole thing
as complete
as it was...
sorry...off topic there..but we are not going reduce the importance of Lennon ::)
sorry, touchy subject ;D
he made brilliant songs
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haha I don't dispute that he was a good songwriter - far from it. Just that his songs relied much more on the sense of personality as you rightly say, than from traditional song-craft. I'm not saying one's 'better' than the other (song-craft and personality; not Lennon & Macca); more that when the two come together, you really have something special.
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What makes a good song? Is it a generational thing?
How one of the greatest song writers of the late 60's and early 70's got started here!..
Check out the young guitarist on the left. Master James Page. Went on to Led Zepplin.
And what influenced him.....!
&feature=related
And he was influenced by what went before him....
We all have an influence.
I was influenced by both Lonnie (a Glasgow boy), Jimmy (a Brummie) both who were influenced by American folk music, Rogers and Hammerstein, Beethoven, Charlie Parker.......and many more....... and the beat goes on!
A great song in my opinion.
Not who wrote it..... not what they say..... not what the're influences were........... BUT HOW IT MAKES YOU FEEL!
After hearing the song ...... Do you want to tell your friends about it? Do you want to play that song again and again? Do you sing that song while you're driving your car?
A great song will still be great no matter who performs it.
That's my guess.
MIhkay.
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Ok so the consensus so far seems to be that a song is good when people respond to it emotionally.
But what about song-craft? How do songwriters give their songs the emotional content that moves their listeners? Do any of you identify the parts of the song and the way the interact to make a great song? Or is it a case of simply following your nose & ears?
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Here are some of my thoughts. A good song is like a journey. It starts in a familiar place, takes you somewhere new and delivers you back home again, enriched and engaged.
And sometimes it's like a photograph, rich in detail and composition, capturing a moment or a feeling with perfection.
I agree that a good song usually has a melody that can be hummed and remembered individually of the song.
I also think a good song has a strong rhythm - an essential part of the melody.
The best songs in my opinion also have a distinctive or recognisable harmonic progression.
But perhaps the best songwriters are the ones who know all the techniques, and have developed a feel for when to break the 'rules', go out on a limb and deliver something not only surprising but beautiful.
I do think that as a songwriter, it's a pretty important consideration. If we don't know why good songs are good, how do we know if our own songs are good? How do you measure the quality of your songs? I know I've been wrong about my own songs in terms of how well others respond to them.
Would love to hear more thoughts on this :)
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I do think that as a songwriter, it's a pretty important consideration. If we don't know why good songs are good, how do we know if our own songs are good? How do you measure the quality of your songs?
Whilst I totally agree with all the comments in you 're last post Tone, this one is the one I had to reply to.
I HAVE NO IDEA IF MY SONGS ARE ANY GOOD! :(
That is down to critics and if there are ever any...fans! ;D
I love lots of stuff by musicians and bands that my friends and others think is terrible and without merit.... along with the majority of the population if the charts are anything to go by! ???
So I find myself just writing what I believe is "quality" material. The main question in my mind is....Am I happy with it? The answer to that question (before release to the public) is usually a qualified yes. Technically I'm not a great player but if I can just feel like there's hope the song can get across to at least one other human being what I was trying to say. I'm happy.
If I knew the secret of writing a great song, I'd be writing this post from the pool in my mansion in the Seychelles whilst waiting for my private jet! ;D
I fully understand the need to seek the 'Holy Grail' of song-writing and if I find it, you'll be the first to know, but for now, I can only go with "gut feelings" and hope the rest of the world eventually finds it fashionable.
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If I knew the secret of writing a great song, I'd be writing this post from the pool in my mansion in the Seychelles whilst waiting for my private jet! ;D
Tongue in cheek, I realise, but I disagree! I've heard plenty of really great songs by amateur musicians that don't really stand a chance of being played in the charts because they're not written in the 'in' style. I think a good song is good, regardless of an commercial appeal or success, and actually, plenty of terrible songs do very well because they are accompanied by videos featuring nearly-naked young women. Fact!
I still think this discussion has room to grow - pile in, songwriters!
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I think part of the issue here is the difference between the aim of songwriters.
If I thought that I'd never make any money from my songs, I'd stop today. Seriously. When I sit down to write a song, I am looking at commercial appeal and potential interest from publishers/buyers etc. Now, I don't necessarily get there in terms of writing a perfect commercial song but that is my 100% aim.
From being part of this board for a while now, I can see two distinct types of songwriters on here. Some are content with writing for themselves and friends etc with no real aim to get published. Others are in it to make money and/or promote their talent commercially. I am not saying that either are right or wrong, both take talent and can create brilliant songs. I do feel that the difference between the aims of songwriters leads to the differences "in what makes a good song" in the posts above and elsewhere.
Now, writing commercial songs, in many people's eyes leads to "better" songs because for the last 60 odd years, we have been told by the media that the more a song sells, the better it must be. I disagree to some extent but I do believe that, for me at least, judging a song is about more than just listening to the song. I take into account the writer/performer/performance, previous songs by that writer, the style, the talent involved, the message they are trying to convey, the difference between the recording and the live performance, if there is any etc etc. I can't always get that from non-commercial songs and therefore my compass always points towards that finished package. Maybe it's just me, I don't know! Does that make any sense?
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If I knew the secret of writing a great song, I'd be writing this post from the pool in my mansion in the Seychelles whilst waiting for my private jet! ;D
Tongue in cheek, I realise, but I disagree! I've heard plenty of really great songs by amateur musicians that don't really stand a chance of being played in the charts because they're not written in the 'in' style. I think a good song is good, regardless of an commercial appeal or success, and actually, plenty of terrible songs do very well because they are accompanied by videos featuring nearly-naked young women. Fact!
I still think this discussion has room to grow - pile in, songwriters!
You're right Tone. Right place, right time and a fashionable image does play a great part in success. I agree, that doesn't make great art. Van Gogh died penniless and unappreciated.
Lot's of room here for more discussion....... I'll think on! ???
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Great post Hofnerite,
I totally agree with your observations of two types of songwriter. When I write, I try to strike a balance, trying to give my songs commercial appeal whilst also striving to achieve my own artistic goals. That can be a real battle! I'd love to achieve commercial success but would continue to pursue the elusive perfect song even if I couldn't achieve success or financial reward for my efforts. What makes a good song? The obvious response is a great, memorable melody with smart, thought provoking lyrics that the listener can relate to, often evoking strong feelings of an event or time in their lives. That's what I believe anyway. To the next guy, a great song has to tick a whole new set of boxes. This is a difficult and very subjective question to respond to and so, this debate could well go on and on. Well done on raising this searching question Tone!
Paul
Aul
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Very interesting stuff here guys. For me, the process is this:
1, You hear the song somewhere and it catches your attention. You find yourself needing to hear it again.
2. You subsequently get to hear it again, and it works its way into your brain, ticking all the boxes on your own personal 'What it is I like about a good song' list (which, for everyone is, of course, completely unique).
3. With repeated listens you fall totally in love with it, and every time you hear it, you have the sweetest little eargasms.
4. You get a recording of it and include it in your own personal and ever-growing musical harem (ipod, cd collection etc.) with all the other songs you love, and for as long as you live, it should remain high on your list of little musical masterpieces.
5. In time you will - of course - move on to the next one (because there are so many out there and it is impossible to remain completely loyal to only one), but you will always have a special place for it in your musical memory. There may be exceptional circumstances of course, where something really bad happens to put you off listening to a song ever again - an emotional trauma in your life, maybe; or even when the artist f*cks it up for you (like with the whole Gary Glitter paedophile thing - all those poor, betrayed little people who were seventies teenagers... it's not a wonder punk happened!).
There are so many reasons why you could judge a song to be 'good' - melody, harmony, counterpoint, lyrics, arrangement, atmosphere, purpose, relevance, etc... the point is that for you, it comes along at the right time and, for whatever reason, it really appeals to you and blows your socks off. The songs you love are part of the soundtrack of your life and their importance should never be underestimated. Don't you agree?
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"The songs you love are part of the soundtrack of your life."
Very true. (Sorry for posting before introducing myself, but this topic fired me up!)
I think whether a song is good or not depends on the genre. It's probably best if I select a few examples to illustrate what makes a good song for me.
Rutinas by Chenoa. I would guess, probably incorrectly, that a lot of people would listen to this song and describe it as middle of the road (a euphemism for 'uninteresting'), but there's a whistfulness in its harmonies that I find very evocative and takes me back to some of the songs that I first heard in the 1970s. That's why I've quoted TNMC. Sometimes a song catches you because of something inside you, a reminiscence or deep emotion. Rutinas, for all its simplicity, was my favourite song in 2010. However...
Feuer Frei by Rammstein. I don't want to be taken back to the 1970s when I listen to heavy metal. I want a full on wall of sound that sucks the breath out of my lungs. If heavy metal doesn't do that I'm not interested. The sheer intensity of Rammstein's sound is what makes their metal 'good metal.' (I won't go into their other qualities re irony, sense of humour and other things.) However...
Melting by Bissen. When I listen to trance the melody has to go with the other worldly airiness of the production to create that big sound that raises the hairs on the back of your neck. (Imagine me listening to good music and I'm left a physical wreck; hairless, breathless, melancholy!) Trance has to have those qualities otherwise it's just a repetitive noise. However...
Dr Buck's Letter by The Fall. Even the most cacophanous racket will have its merits if it's performed by Mark E Smith. I've analysed this guy for a long time now and it's the inventiveness of his work, the unpredictability of his music and the peculiar obscurity of his lyrics which seem to reveal their meaning almost by stealth. The Fall fall outside all musical categories (although one friend of mine described them as country and western, whilst another found them totally unlistenable). And finally...
Perdere l'Amore by Lara Fabian. Another essential component of a song's quality is how it is performed and when a singer such as Lara Fabian, the best in the world in my opinion, can rip your heart out for four minutes by her voice, body language, expressions and technical perfection, you're in the presence of greatness.
And so it goes back to genre. Lara Fabian, for all her skill, would never be a suitable lead singer for Venom, and Mark E Smith's complexity would jar in the middle of a trance mix by Aly and Fila. Good songs match the expectations of the genre and then exceed them; they are crafted and well performed, and then hit you physically or psychologically. And by being so memorable they become part of that soundtrack that travels with you through life.
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i think a good song is made by how much you put yourself into, if u get what i mean
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I don't really understand the guys who say when they write a song they write with the 'commercial appeal' in mind. Wheres the enjoyment in that, wheres the fun?
I write what I want to hear and what I think sounds good. If other people like it, its a bonus. That doesnt mean I woudn't like success, because that would mean I can write and pay music all day every day. But if I had to write 'commercial songs' then you can keep your success.
What makes a good song depends on your genre/style. One thing that I think is at the heart of all good music is good musicianship. Melody is key for me, and lyrics to an extent.
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good question, i think good structured lyrics help, i'd say the new Artic monkeys song has terrible lyrics on which would otherwise be a good song. Also i'd say having a bridge to the chorus etc.
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I always recognise a good song when the songs been stripped to it's bare bones and it sounds as good as when fully produced.
I think a quality written song stripped down will always outshine a well produced average written song.
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Wow!! a BIG question.
What makes a good song for me is firstly the vocal melody, it's the first thing most people latch onto whether they can hear the lyrics or not.
Secondly an above average musical idea, a great guitar riff (not just a chord progression) that is equally as catchy as the vocal melody and a riff that is repeated often.
and finally when the listener has gotten past the melody and the riff he needs a pay off in the lyrics, a good idea is to write something so ambiguous it can relate to any listener and they can apply it to what ever situation they find themselves in. It is always a great way to reach peoples minds. If you write really specific lyrics, for example about war, you need to make sure they are absolutley the best you can do because you are trying to appeal to a more lyrically tuned ear.
Thats what I think, its all subjective but thats my 2 pence.
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The way that the lyric, melody and chords work together to tell a story.
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A lot of people saying melody is key.
What about Beethoven, Fatboy Slim, Yoyo Ma and other musicians that don't have lyrics in their songs?
Peter
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A lot of people saying melody is key.
What about Beethoven, Fatboy Slim, Yoyo Ma and other musicians that don't have lyrics in their songs?
Peter
I would say that a song without lyrics isn't really a song.
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for once...
I totally disagree with you Tone
the very few instrumental songs that have become hits in the last decades
without having to use words
generally are examples of excellent songwriting (except for some ridiculous synthesizer songs)
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I suppose what I'm trying to say is if we know what makes a good song then if you try and write a song without that quality, it cannot be good.
I believe lyrics aren't necessarily ESSENTIAL to making a good song, but in our culture, they're pretty important.
Speaking of culture, songs can be good or bad depending on something as abstract as if someone likes a TV show.
You play Surfing Bird by The Trashmen to someone who likes Family Guy, for example...
Peter
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Very, very, diffficult question to answer! And totally subjective, I think.
For me, it has to make me feel. It doesn't matter what, but I want to listen to a song and be moved one way or another - that can be moved to tears, or moved to a state of happy, mad excitement.
Also, although I love deep, multi-meaning lyrics, I don't actually believe that a song has to be really wordy and clever or overly poetic; sometimes it can be simply the voice that will move me, or just the music.
My taste is so eclectic song-wise - everything from Queen to Dylan; Radiohead to Abba; Lennon and Mccartney to Dusty Springfield...the list goes on and on! And I absolutely abhor music snobbery - those that state you cant like this or that as it's just not fashionable, dear, or it's just not profound enough. Everything has it's place - when I wish to hear stories I'll delve into Dylan; when I want an emotional vocal performance I'll dig out my dear old Queen records (Freddie mercury, imho, was a vocal genius, and his earlier song lyrics were completely original and unique - Seven seas of rhye; Killer Queen, etc.).
Anyway, I could go on but I fear I have already lost most of you due to the length of this bleedin' post! lol.
I'm Paul, btw. Nice to meet you all.
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What a great post - really thought provoking.
I've been thinking about this all morning. Lots of people have said that lyrics, melody and harmony are what counts, but isn't that what makes a song a song, regardless of how good it is?
What makes lyrics good lyrics? etc...
People have said that good lyrics are lyrics that connect, that mean something to the listener, but what is that?
One idea I have is that tension is what makes lyrics/melody/harmony interesting.
Tension is the thing that keeps you listening from one line to the next. The best piece of advice i've ever had was never to let a single idea or phrase (thematically) run across two lines (melodically). This ruins the build up.
Opening lines are so important in creating tension.
Muscailly as well, tension can really carry a song. When the song appraoches the bridge or pre-chorus and the melody soars to a note that just screams for it to be brought back in ot the chorus it makes the pay off so much more satisfying and that is what keeps us coming back in my opinion.
Someone mentioned that the pay-off is what makes a great song and I agree, but you need tension to create a pay-off.
This is such a massive topic, i'm looking forward to thinking some more about it... more to follow...
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Evening Shylock,
I think the answer is a good singer.
the singer not the song ?
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In retrospect i realise that the above remark was a bit of a smart arse thing to say.
Got a great deal to do with it but it doesnt stand up..
Apologies to you Shylock
Nooms
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Hi all,
I think what makes a great song is the chord progression and Identity. A song should stay within it's own genre, when I'm writing a song if i get a certain feel from the song I try and keep moving in that direction rather than composing to my own strengths as a musician. Lyrics always come last for me chord progression first. If i could work on one thing as a composer I would love to write more complex time signatures, but hey most of the music I listen to is 4/4 so that's what happens.
If you want to hear my music you can find it here
www.facebook.com/robfenning
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this is bending the topic a teeny bit but you see i have never wanted to listen to what other people are listening to!
the bands ive gone right off of when theyve got big & evryones walking round with there cd! i like my music i am listening to to be a bit secret & bit exclusive so i would have to say a good song to me has to have a bit of that in it
& its the same for films & books aswell....i just cant seem to help it
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*clicks fingers*
Oh course! The answer is so simple!
Boobs!
Peter