The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Writing Process => Topic started by: sarepaar on December 30, 2014, 02:48:00 AM
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So I have trouble getting a song and a melody to fit together. The lyrics of song mostly come quite easily to me. There is one song I have tried to find a good melody to fit the lyrics but it's really hard. I heard from other people that they just start strumming some chods on the guitar and sing a melody over that. But that does not work for me. I find it easier to sing a melody over the lyrics but... I don't know how to find the right chords with that melody. In the end will often get frustrated and stop to come back to it later and have the same problem. I am planning on getting some guitar lessons again in the new year and learn some more about the technical stuff. But is there a way I can find the right chords with a melody now? Thanks!
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You definitely need to get some more music theory behind you to figure this kind of stuff out
However, I can give you a quick run down that might help immediately
The first thing you need to do is determine what KEY your melody is in
I would suggest that you start with C Major (or its relative minor of A minor)
In your case I would simply strum a C Major chord and then just carry on singing your melody
Then, when you want to find your chords the options will be narrowed down considerably and are likely to be from the C Major "chord scale"
I C Major
ii D minor
iii E minor
IV F Major
V G Major
Vi A minor
Vii B Diminished (don't worry about this one for now)
There are times you will want to deviate from these chords but you can write a LOT of songs just using these chords and if you were to just sing a tune off the top of your head I think these chords will work - and if I had to guess you will mainly need C Major, A minor, F Major and G Major
I hope this helps - good luck!
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A few thoughts to add to Boydie's.
You can create melodies without playing any chords. just singing a melody without any guitar or piano.
You've got the lyrics so try singing them a few times and see if you get a decent melody. Typically there will be some variation between verse and chorus etc. Then record on a phone. you should be alb ego at least work out what the key you're singing it in and start to progress chords underneath the melody rather than other way around.
Good luck.
:)
Neil
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oke thank you I wil try that next time.
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Another trick is to think of a song you know with a good melody and just change it up a little bit - take something from the first song but don't copy it.
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You can put melody into your lyrics by writing to an existing song as MD suggested ,not copying but as a template...i generally write better stuff when i am inspired by a song...happened to me in the last few days..and some of my better work i might add.....
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I have a question to ask. In order to make a song into a concrete thing, do you need to be able to play an instrument? I'm learning the piano by myself, but I have more desire to sing my lyrics, whilst someone else kind of solidifies the melody with whatever things they use (as long as it brings out the best from my song). Is that feasible? DO producers do that kind of stuff?
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If you can find a collaboration partner you may have some luck by offering them some lyrics to work on but this usually involves building up a relationship first and some "trust" for someone to spend hours and hours writing, recording and producing the music
If you want "YOUR" songs developed up into full productions then this is a service you would normally need to pay for
There are lots of demo services out there that offer this
If you want a cheaper alternative drop me a PM and I am sure we could work something out ;)
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Yes you can pay like Boydie says...i have a mate thats a sound engineer/musician and he did me something for £108 -just waiting for him to send it, not mega high quality but good enough for a vocal to be added and pitched..[i hope :D]
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Boydie+Songsthatcry: Thank you very much for the reply and advice. I was thinking about collaborating in fact, but I always have a problem with that idea as it would always require some sort of compromise with said person. Unfortunately, I don't like compromise, because the songs I have, have been written from the heart.
Yeah, I read about those services, but I'm still a little confused about it. If I have a song idea in my head, sing it out in acapella (in the case I don't want to use the piano), how exactly would the person know what would make that song sound great? The whole process is a bit baffling to be honest. What I assume is that- you can get someone to supply you with a backing track and you add lyrics to that, or you can sing your song with (in this case) acapella and they can make a backing track from/with it? Is it like that? Me no know.. Either way, thank you very much again for the replies. Helps clears a few things up for me and what I want.
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"Yeah, I read about those services, but I'm still a little confused about it. If I have a song idea in my head, sing it out in acapella (in the case I don't want to use the piano), how exactly would the person know what would make that song sound great?"
The good pro studios have great musicians and D.A.W skills ...and if you sang it and supplied a vocal melody..they know exactly what to do...whether the finished product is exactly what you intended might be another story but it will be good.
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I think this video can really help you :) :
t=40
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This way of thinking/working seems so backward to me. Could never do it. I love melodies but for me they have to be created on top of something (like chords).
But the only way I could make it work the other way around I guess would be singing (or playing) the melody into the computer and then find the fitting bass notes, identifying those and then build up the song. But I feel that a melody, any melody, really shines when when it sound harmonically interesting in regard to the musical background :-)
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There are many ways to write songs. I find the easiest way is establish the chords that you intend to use. Once you settle on a rhythm, this dictates where you will place the vocal melody over the chords and consequently the number of syllables that you have to work with. Maybe that's considered a difficult approach but I find it works well for me - the song then takes the writer on a journey until it reaches completion. That's how I started writing and over a period of many years, it becomes a very easy process. I suppose it's like anything that you practice often enough - it becomes easier.
Method two is to write a musical structure, beginning with the building blocks of chords. I then produce the whole song, adding multiple instruments. The finished production determines the melody that you will write - Nooms and i wrote a full album using this technique.
Writing lyrics first may be the most difficult mehod simply because i find you must be incredibly precise with your use of syllables in a couplet. Get this right e.g. 12 syllabbles in your first line, followed by 12 in your second and the job of writing a melody is made so much easier. It can be done succesfully with an uneven number of syllables but I find the first approach works better. i think it's a good idea to be extremely disciplined when writing lyrics - the end result is that everything fits together in a seamless way - at least that's what i strive for.
I hope the above helps a little. I don't claim to be an expert but I wanted to share a little about the way that I aporoach this task.
Paul
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Paul - it's great to see you on the forum :D Good post, and good advice. The main reason I'm replying though: where can I hear the album you and nooms did? I've only heard 2 tracks I think, and my own bowl is still one of my fave songs.
:)
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I'm loving this thread!
As a lyricist I always write lyrics first and then collab with a musician/composer/producer and give them free licence to change and tweak lyrics as they see fit. Its a great flexible approach and can often come up with some really good songs that were nothing like I had in my head when writing the lyrics or coming up with the hook or concept.
However lately I've been dabbling into the music side and slowly swotting up on a little bit of theory- its all my brain can process and its taken a back seat lately as I've been uber busy but will have more time in the near future to dip my toe back in. I've tried to start toplining by messing around with keys until it sounds a bit like the melody in my head. I find it hard to marry this with a chord progression however. I also find marrying a bass line and drum beat - at the minute I go with a simple four to the floor 4 bass drum beat and 4 single bass notes- difficult.
I think the key is to toy and decide what is best for you through trial and error. Might also be useful to mix it up every once and while. I've a few toplined ideas I'll defo come back to and likewise I've a few chord progressions and bass lines that I'll work on to try and turn more into a 'song'. I guess its not about objectivity but subjectivity- do what works for you. Many successful writers all have different methods from each other but they're all successful- why? Cos they do what works for them and whatever gets the best out of their work. I think you should perhaps look at developing approaches rather than an approach.
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Hi tone,
Not sure if all of the songs that Nooms and i did are online. I'll have to check with him. i think our collaboration would have rolled on and on but it was halted when my marriage fell apart. We will write again, i'm sure. At the moment most of my recording equipment is in storage as it has been for a year and a half. I will eventually move into my new house (finally) in April - my fourth move since the end of my relationship.
nooms and I wrote My Own Bowl, Couch, The Big Slide, Lost In The Stereo Field, Cleopatra's Sister, Waving, Hammersmith Bridge, Do You Think Jesus Ever Saw Snow, and I think two more. I'll ask him to put them all up on soundcloud or failing that, when my equipment is dusted off in the spring, I'll email the tracks which currently reside on an external hard drive.
Thank you for the welcome tone!
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There were a lot of songwriting duos in the past where one would get credit for the lyrics and the other would get credit for the music. I have a feeling that this MAY work for you because you would end up learning composition skills and theory from an experienced composer as you work with them. Combine that with learning piano and you should do okay.
I am a guitarist but I plan on starting piano lessons this year, it can only make me a better writer/singer.
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So I have trouble getting a song and a melody to fit together. The lyrics of song mostly come quite easily to me. There is one song I have tried to find a good melody to fit the lyrics but it's really hard. I heard from other people that they just start strumming some chods on the guitar and sing a melody over that. But that does not work for me. I find it easier to sing a melody over the lyrics but... I don't know how to find the right chords with that melody. In the end will often get frustrated and stop to come back to it later and have the same problem. I am planning on getting some guitar lessons again in the new year and learn some more about the technical stuff. But is there a way I can find the right chords with a melody now? Thanks!
With me it starts with what i see in the lyrics and then i use the guitar strings to find that comfort zone that brings the vocals into the lyrics once all this starts to happen you'll then find the chords, but the main thing is not to think to much about it just follow the moment or maybe that should be just ease into the moment and then everything should start to come together.
But remember at the start of putting a song together don't think about a melody just work with the three things you have lyrics guitar strings and vocals but the first thing for me has to be what i see in the lyrics then its the job of getting the vocals and guitar strings to work together in finding those chords then the melody will come.
Also what ill say is everyone is different so try everything until you find your own way but one of the pleasure i find is putting together a song to someone else's lyrics and i really do believe that will be the best education you can give yourself.
If no one else has offered let me know.
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Thanks for the tips everyone! It's really interesting to hear the different approach everyone has. Maybe that's what's so hard(but fun) about songwriting: no guidelines to work with. You have to figure it out on your own. :)
I have found that it has already gotten much easier now. I'm still finding out what works for me and I had a different approach every single time I tried to put a melody to the words. I might also have been just a little too critical of my own work instead of just enjoying the process. ::) (it's about the journey not the destination :P)
I think I had this belief about songwriting(and any kind of creativity really) that it just has to come to you from your inner emotions or drops down from heaven and all of the sudden you have this great song and melody while I guess this is not the case for many songwriters. It's actually really hard work!
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this is what i do..I've got a melody in my head..the first note of the melody I find on the guitar or piano (bear in mind I can't play either well) I then play chords that include that note until I hear the one that sounds best..then repeat that with each note..you'll find that quite often it possible to sing a whole line on one chord..I don't agree with the advice to listen to another song and change the notes around..that is not particularly creative is it,
best, Kevin :)
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just seen this thread..wotcha wicked..
Paul - it's great to see you on the forum :D Good post, and good advice. The main reason I'm replying though: where can I hear the album you and nooms did? I've only heard 2 tracks I think, and my own bowl is still one of my fave songs.
heres the songs tone - all but two anyway of the 'tickety-boo' album soon to be downloadable in glorious stereo...theyve been up there all the time..good job i dont work in PR
https://soundcloud.com/noomsvasey
look forward to doing some more when wickeds ready ..
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So I have trouble getting a song and a melody to fit together. The lyrics of song mostly come quite easily to me. There is one song I have tried to find a good melody to fit the lyrics but it's really hard. I heard from other people that they just start strumming some chods on the guitar and sing a melody over that. But that does not work for me. I find it easier to sing a melody over the lyrics but... I don't know how to find the right chords with that melody. In the end will often get frustrated and stop to come back to it later and have the same problem. I am planning on getting some guitar lessons again in the new year and learn some more about the technical stuff. But is there a way I can find the right chords with a melody now? Thanks!
Okay... to answer YOUR question, I have to know a little more about your musical training. I have an answer if you can do some things.
First of all... can you write music as notes on a staff? If you can read music from a staff, you can write it. If you can do either, there is a software that would be helpful to you. Let me know if you want to know what it is. The software won't write the music for you, but it will allow you to start with either a Bass Line, OR a vocal line and work from there to "build" your song.
Secondly.... If you cannot write music as notes on a staff, there is a different software that will generate chords for you. If you have an idea how to put chords together in interesting and compatible combinations, it could be very helpful to you. You can either sing a vocal melody into the software, OR simply assign chords to each measure and get a good idea of your instrumental melody (which will be compatible with your vocal melody if you have one.)
Third. Can you play piano at all? There are free softwares available that allow you to create piano based music and begin "building" a song from there.
Fourth, can you listen to existing music, and write lyrics to it while listening? I'm not asking if you can do that in one sitting. I'm asking if listening to a piece of music over and over leads to words forming in your head?
I'll be happy to help if you can answer these four questions. There ARE solutions for you. And they are mostly either free or very inexpensive. None of them involve buying anything from me.
Let me know.
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Song writing is different for everyone. I tend to write melodies with nonsense lyrics, find chords that fit the melody line by sheer trial and error and then fill in the proper lyrics later. I think if you can play all the major chords, all the minors and 7ths plus a few common diminished and suspended chords, you can cover around 95% of all the songs ever written. That took me around 2 years but I'm guessing you're much younger than me. Took me 6 months to be able to play an F chord at age 48, took my brother in law an afternoon, aged 15!
My best advice for writing melodies is to listen to a song with a great melody and just tweak some notes a little. Take a little but don't copy and be inspired by the intervals in the song. Another way is to take a great song, write the chord progression down, play it and see if anything jumps out at you melodically. There is nothing wrong with this from a copyright point of view. You can't copyright a chord progression.
I hope this helps
M