The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Resources & Marketing => Topic started by: KEROUAC1957 on February 07, 2013, 06:16:59 PM
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Any advice on copyrighting songs? I've uploaded a few songs to Soundcloud but kept them private for now. I notice they have the option of All Rights reserved or Creative Commons. Are they effectively copyrighted once you do this process? I know in the old days I used to use the postal method of sending a recording to myself by registered post but I guess there might be better ways to do it now.
Also what are peoples thoughts on Creative Commons? Is it a good idea to retain full rights to your songs or by giving people more access does it give you better exposure?
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Any advice on copyrighting songs? I've uploaded a few songs to Soundcloud but kept them private for now. I notice they have the option of All Rights reserved or Creative Commons. Are they effectively copyrighted once you do this process? I know in the old days I used to use the postal method of sending a recording to myself by registered post but I guess there might be better ways to do it now.
Also what are peoples thoughts on Creative Commons? Is it a good idea to retain full rights to your songs or by giving people more access does it give you better exposure?
I still send all my songs on cd with printed lyric sheets in a jiffy bag to myself recorded delivery.
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Creative commons doesn't really give people more access in terms of more exposure. What it does is allows people to use your material and adapt it in any way they see fit so long as they don't claim at as solely their own or try to profit from it. This is taken from the creative commons site http://creativecommons.org/licenses/
Every license helps creators — we call them licensors if they use our tools — retain copyright while allowing others to copy, distribute, and make some uses of their work — at least non-commercially
Choosing a licensing option on soundcloud isn't really part of copyrighting your songs. In simple terms, the mere act of writing a song also creates your copyright entitlement. Of course it's up to you to demonstrate that you wrote the song 'before' a potential claimant to the tune/lyric, so having it uploaded to soundcloud could work in your favour (the server will keep a record of the time & date of upload)
But honestly, I think actively copyrighting your songs isn't really the norm these days. But I suppose it depends on how you work and what you want to achieve. When I write a song, I usually perform it regularly. People I play music with get to know the song, so I've got quite a lot of 'witnesses' to the fact I wrote it. But I never send myself a CD or anything, and I don't believe that people ripping off other people's songs is something that happens very often.
Also, there's another thread on this (it's always a good idea to search before posting) http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/songwriters-resources/how-do-i-copyright-my-songs/ which you may find useful.
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True, copyright isn't really needed for songs that don't enter the commercial sector but if, like me, you are going to put them with publishers/record companies then I would seriously think about some form of time stamped proof of when it was written.
You only start encountering problems when a song starts making a lot of money. Not very likely I know but don't be the unlucky 1% who didn't copyright in some way!
Alan .
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The "poor man's copyright" (sending something to yourself in the post) is certainly not cast iron proof
I am sure I could think of lots of ways to send myself something in the post (eg an unsealed/poorly sealed envelope) and stick a few cds and lyrics in at a later date, seal the envelope and voila!
There are a number of copyright services that add another layer of protection (GISC offers all menbers a free copyrighting service for example) but TONE is right - the chances of being ripped off are very slim
Copyright is automatic in the UK when you create something original (in the case of sohgwriting only melody and lyrics are protected)- the only issue you have is being able to prove it
The envelope sent to yourself WOULD add to the body of proof - as would drafts of lyrics, files on your computer etc.
There is not yet any case law around digital copyright but I am sure being able to prove you uploaded a track to Soundcloud, this forum etc. would also add to the body of proof in your favour
Finally, if you have written something truly great the chances are publishers, labels, artist etc. would want YOU so that you can churn out some more!
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Ahh....this old chestnut ;D ;D Let's face it guys, if someone wants to rip you off they will, and you might never know about it.....the world is a big place, and the 'commercial sector' is full of ruthless bastards, who have no respect for what's legal or moral. Copyright, patents, design rights are not going to put off a determined counterfeiter/criminal from going about their everyday business. The idea that an established, respectable publisher, institution or artist might rip you off on the 'off chance' that you haven't protected your product is a non starter, as far as I'm concerned. They would probably have more to lose than they have to gain anyway. Personally, if I woke up one morning and heard one of my songs was a number one hit for Take That....I would be thrilled, not pssed off ;D I would THEN claim copyright, and ask them if they wanted any more ;D ;D ;D In fact, I would go as far as saying that being ripped off might be the best thing that could happen ;D ;D I'm not saying that copyright isn't a good/positive thing, but I see it as mainly for my own 'peace of mind' ;D I think the 'bottom line' here is to seek your rewards from the enjoyment/satisfaction of creating and sharing your work....if financial success is your main aim, and 'raison d'etre', then, get a manager, and let him/her take care of all that stuff, while you concentrate on your art. Just don't worry too much about copyright ;D In my opinion, it's time, money, and energy that can be better spent elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the subject guys ;D ;D
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It's also worth noting that although copyrighting is free to members at GISC, to become a member you must first pay £58.
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Well, i`m sure bits and pieces do get used without permission ....i sent a song idea off to band x,,,(made up name}...they did a song on their next album which was clearly based on my theme...i like them ,so i`m not that bothered and would probably get no where fast in court.....
Copy right is protection,but not cast iron,i talked to MIM GREY about this and she said it`s never happened to her,she does`nt really worry about it......
Think about the fact it`s so difficult to bring something to market...if someone does nick your tune or idea...what are they really going to gain out of it,,probably not a lot...and if it does do something..i`m sure if you make a big fuss...you will get some exposure out of it.
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Thanks for the replies and I'll check out the previous discussion. What I meant by Creative commons perhaps giving more exposure was that lets say a rap artist took a section of your song and created their own song around it and it achieved some success this would give you more exposure than if you used the All rights reserved/don't touch my song option. I know the chances are probably remote and maybe in these cases some people will just pinch something anyway but I thought it was worth considering.
The thing I still find strange about copyright if I understand correctly is that it is based just on melody and lyrics. So if somebody copied your song exactly but just changed the melody and lyrics it would be their song? I guess this is based on the idea that every chord progression has already been done. But it doesn't seem right to me based on the fact that you may have taken months or even longer to come up with that music.
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No publisher or record company will touch a song that has samples from another song without that persons express permission.
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Cheers for citing the cost of GISC PERSEVERENCE, I couldn't remember as I have let my mmbership lapse whilst I "re-focus" what I am doing
For that £58 you get unlimited copyright, song assessments (limited if I recall correctly but plenty and more than enough for most), legal support, sample forms, regular magazine with features, articles, leads and useful info
The whole organisaton appears very "old skool" - the website is awful and the magazine looks "home-made" but the info is very good
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So if somebody copied your song exactly but just changed the melody and lyrics it would be their song?
In a word, yes.
If the melody and lyrics are original, then it's not your song is it? Just because it started life out as your song, doesn't mean you have any claim to it. You can't copyright a chord progression - and if you could, none of our songs would stand a chance of being heard.
Similarly to songsthatcry's hunch that a band based one of their songs on a song he wrote. It's part of the creative mindset. Every piece of music and lyric we write is based on something we heard or read. There's no escaping it. I have a song called the crescent which is based on the feeling of Crowded House's 'in my command' - but it's an original song to which Neil Finn would have no conceivable claim - because the melody and lyrics (and chord progressions) are completely different.
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Tone I know In My Command very well as it one of my favourite songs (big Crowded House fan). It still doesn't make sense to me though. If you were to play the instrumental of In My Command (no melody or lyrics) I am pretty sure there isn't an identical song to it so why isn't it considered to be an original piece of music in it's own right? I know to answer that you may have had to study law but the principle seems wrong to me. By the way I don't think there is any harm in being heavily influenced by a song and doing a sort of homage to it without following it note for note or doing a section of it.
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I think it depends on how you define songwriting. If you copied the entire arrangement to a song (in my command for example) including all the instrumental parts down to the last note, then changed the lyrics and melody, then you're ripping off Crowded House in my opinion, and there's a copyright issue at stake.
But that's not really what I meant. If you play in my command on the acoustic guitar, then end up using the same chords to one of your own songs, with your own lyrics, and your recorded version doesn't use any of the same parts as the Crowded House record, then I don't see a copyright issue arising.
There's bound to be a grey area between those two extremes somewhere, I admit.
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Ahh....this old chestnut ;D ;D Let's face it guys, if someone wants to rip you off they will, and you might never know about it.....the world is a big place, and the 'commercial sector' is full of ruthless bastards, who have no respect for what's legal or moral. Copyright, patents, design rights are not going to put off a determined counterfeiter/criminal from going about their everyday business. The idea that an established, respectable publisher, institution or artist might rip you off on the 'off chance' that you haven't protected your product is a non starter, as far as I'm concerned. They would probably have more to lose than they have to gain anyway. Personally, if I woke up one morning and heard one of my songs was a number one hit for Take That....I would be thrilled, not pssed off ;D I would THEN claim copyright, and ask them if they wanted any more ;D ;D ;D In fact, I would go as far as saying that being ripped off might be the best thing that could happen ;D ;D I'm not saying that copyright isn't a good/positive thing, but I see it as mainly for my own 'peace of mind' ;D I think the 'bottom line' here is to seek your rewards from the enjoyment/satisfaction of creating and sharing your work....if financial success is your main aim, and 'raison d'etre', then, get a manager, and let him/her take care of all that stuff, while you concentrate on your art. Just don't worry too much about copyright ;D In my opinion, it's time, money, and energy that can be better spent elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the subject guys ;D ;D
This is great advice indeed and should be listened to!
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Ahh....this old chestnut ;D ;D Let's face it guys, if someone wants to rip you off they will, and you might never know about it.....the world is a big place, and the 'commercial sector' is full of ruthless bastards, who have no respect for what's legal or moral. Copyright, patents, design rights are not going to put off a determined counterfeiter/criminal from going about their everyday business. The idea that an established, respectable publisher, institution or artist might rip you off on the 'off chance' that you haven't protected your product is a non starter, as far as I'm concerned. They would probably have more to lose than they have to gain anyway. Personally, if I woke up one morning and heard one of my songs was a number one hit for Take That....I would be thrilled, not pssed off ;D I would THEN claim copyright, and ask them if they wanted any more ;D ;D ;D In fact, I would go as far as saying that being ripped off might be the best thing that could happen ;D ;D I'm not saying that copyright isn't a good/positive thing, but I see it as mainly for my own 'peace of mind' ;D I think the 'bottom line' here is to seek your rewards from the enjoyment/satisfaction of creating and sharing your work....if financial success is your main aim, and 'raison d'etre', then, get a manager, and let him/her take care of all that stuff, while you concentrate on your art. Just don't worry too much about copyright ;D In my opinion, it's time, money, and energy that can be better spent elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the subject guys ;D ;D
This is great advice indeed and should be listened to!
i concur!
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Ahh....this old chestnut ;D ;D Let's face it guys, if someone wants to rip you off they will, and you might never know about it.....the world is a big place, and the 'commercial sector' is full of ruthless bastards, who have no respect for what's legal or moral. Copyright, patents, design rights are not going to put off a determined counterfeiter/criminal from going about their everyday business. The idea that an established, respectable publisher, institution or artist might rip you off on the 'off chance' that you haven't protected your product is a non starter, as far as I'm concerned. They would probably have more to lose than they have to gain anyway. Personally, if I woke up one morning and heard one of my songs was a number one hit for Take That....I would be thrilled, not pssed off ;D I would THEN claim copyright, and ask them if they wanted any more ;D ;D ;D In fact, I would go as far as saying that being ripped off might be the best thing that could happen ;D ;D I'm not saying that copyright isn't a good/positive thing, but I see it as mainly for my own 'peace of mind' ;D I think the 'bottom line' here is to seek your rewards from the enjoyment/satisfaction of creating and sharing your work....if financial success is your main aim, and 'raison d'etre', then, get a manager, and let him/her take care of all that stuff, while you concentrate on your art. Just don't worry too much about copyright ;D In my opinion, it's time, money, and energy that can be better spent elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the subject guys ;D ;D
This is great advice indeed and should be listened to!
i concur!
Legend Binladeda - total Legend !!!!
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I'm not really a songwriter but a lyricist so I'm often left facing the old copyright dilemma every time I contact/collab with a producer/composer!!! Even before a co-writer agreement is signed and I'm contacting them to put feelers out I'll e-mail myself a copy of the lyrics to 2 different e-mail addresses along with a voice clip of my awful vocals trying to 'sing' the song then I'll upload them on here in the lyrics review section. Keeps a nice electronic record that shows I wrote the original lyrics and melody idea before I contacted them and it also keeps track of any changes, progression etc in case anyone ever tries to shaft me on it :)
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As I mentioned previously "digital" copyright for music/lyrics is yet to be tested in court but I personally think it would help if a dispute were to happen " down the road"
When computers get involved it is a " cat and mouse" game where people try to find secure methods and others find ways to hack/exploit these methods so it would be interesting to see this tested in court
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It's a gamble I'm never really too comfortable taking but being devoid of all musical and vocal talent it's one I have to take to turn lyrics into songs :( The only thing that helps I suppose is that there is a ready copy of all communication from the earliest stages through to completion ie in relation to what needs changed, what we feel works, time frame turn around etc. Just hoping it doesn't come back to bite me on the arse some day :0
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Just an addition to the 'sending a cd through the post to yourself' thing:
It's very simple but I've just sent another to myself as well as adding to my account at myfreecopyright.com and I wrote my address on the reverse of the padded envelope. The post office then stuck the two big stickers over the seal.
It's an idea...
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You might want to read this in the other thread regarding Myfreecopyright http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/songwriters-resources/copyright-for-free/msg34604/#msg34604 (http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/songwriters-resources/copyright-for-free/msg34604/#msg34604)
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True, copyright isn't really needed for songs that don't enter the commercial sector but if, like me, you are going to put them with publishers/record companies then I would seriously think about some form of time stamped proof of when it was written.
You only start encountering problems when a song starts making a lot of money. Not very likely I know but don't be the unlucky 1% who didn't copyright in some way!
Alan .
This is a great point. You want to be protected, but don't get overly hung up on protecting your music. Obscurity is a much bigger problem than theft in the case of most indie musicians.