[Mark Ryan]

In hindsight I think I should probably have posted this song in the other forum for "unfinished songs." I definitely agree that the song should be longer but, as with all my songs, I don't want to record it in its full format until I have the equipment, skills and knowledge of production as well as ideally a band rather than just myself with an acoustic guitar. Until then what I'm offering with my songs is the skeleton and basic structure: verse and chorus. If the song were longer this structure would remain the same, so that anybody listening to it now is basically listening to the same song - just shorter length - and can judge based on that whether they like it or not.

I disagree, however with the gentleman who said  that: "the 1st verse is never difficult. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th are always what separates the men from the boys." I would put it differently. I think it's a strong melody which separates the men from the boys and my main criteria for judging other people's songs is melodic strength. The melody of the verse doesn't change and I don't find it difficult to write new lyrics so making these songs longer would not be at all difficult.

One more point. I'm not looking to wow music executives and have no particular interest in "making it" in the music industry. I'm just doing this for fun in my spare time. However, if I did have an album I would be looking to make this a single, rather than a hidden track.

Hi Michillini,
I think you may have mistaken what I was saying there. I'm 100% certain if you asked everyone on this forum, in fact if you asked any professional writer how many unfinished songs they have on their laptop whereby they've had an idea and written a verse and chorus and maybe the first line of the 2nd verse only to have a mental block, they would tell you hundreds, maybe thousands of times. Paul McCartney, who is one of the most prolific writers ever, has said that he has bits of songs lying all over the place which have yet to be finished due to running out of ideas at the time. The melody you speak of is already there in the first verse and chorus so that isn't changing. Turning these verses into completed songs is what separates us. Like I said, the 1st verse is always easy because you've already had the idea and inspiration. Elaborating on that idea is what makes a writer.

[Michilini]

I understood you perfectly the first time. I just disagreed.

I think as a general rule on forums it's best not to preface a point with: "I'm 100% certain if you asked everyone on this forum, in fact if you asked any professional writer..." because it comes across as arrogant and cocksure. This is a forum for constructive criticism not point scoring and it isn't the place of any individual to speak on behalf of the rest of the songwriting community.

Every songwriter has a different style of writing and everyone finds difficulties in different areas of the craft. Personally, I find it quite difficult to come up with original melodies. I do not find it difficult to write lyrics - regardless of which verse or chorus. This may or may not be because I am a journalist and write for a living. It may be because my lyrics lack depth so are easy to come up with. Whatever the reason it's my personal experience. It is neither right nor wrong.

By the way I share Paul McCartney's experience of having bits of songs all over the place. I can't speak for him but in my case it's less to do with lyrics than it is with melodies and chords. Regardless, I think it is best if this forum remains free of judgments about other people's legitimate writing styles and sticks to constructively criticising the content.

[Mark Ryan]

I understood you perfectly the first time. I just disagreed.

I think as a general rule on forums it's best not to preface a point with: "I'm 100% certain if you asked everyone on this forum, in fact if you asked any professional writer..." because it comes across as arrogant and cocksure. This is a forum for constructive criticism not point scoring and it isn't the place of any individual to speak on behalf of the rest of the songwriting community.

Every songwriter has a different style of writing and everyone finds difficulties in different areas of the craft. Personally, I find it quite difficult to come up with original melodies. I do not find it difficult to write lyrics - regardless of which verse or chorus. This may or may not be because I am a journalist and write for a living. It may be because my lyrics lack depth so are easy to come up with. Whatever the reason it's my personal experience. It is neither right nor wrong.

By the way I share Paul McCartney's experience of having bits of songs all over the place. I can't speak for him but in my case it's less to do with lyrics than it is with melodies and chords. Regardless, I think it is best if this forum remains free of judgments about other people's legitimate writing styles and sticks to constructively criticising the content.

If you have a melody to the 1st verse, and lyrics tend not to be the problem, why would you find it difficult to write a 2nd or 3rd? You see this takes us back to the lyrics or poetry debate. Lyrics form part of a song, which includes a melody. If there is no melody then do we still have song lyrics? No, we have a poem.
If you've written a tune and then proceeded to write some lyrics and have only got as far as verse 1 or it's still to be finished in some way or another, then the song isn't complete. And I reiterate, I am 100% sure there's not a person on this board who doesn't have songs like that lying around the house. Although now that I've said that I can almost guarantee that some contrary person or another will disagree just for the sake of it.
If this comes across as arrogance or cock-suredness, then it's unintentional. However I wasn't aware that stating facts through personal experience and from conversations with every other writer I've ever met, would be seen in this way. If I said that I 100% guarantee that everyone on this forum owns a pen would that be seen in the same way? i mean, I have no proof, nor have I conducted a poll, however, I think it's a fair assumption without being accused of arrogance or being cock-sure. Don't you? 

[Michilini]

Yeah, I'm sure lots of people have lots of incomplete songs lying around. It's just not what we're discussing. The point is nobody else on the forum is pretending that they cannot make a judgment on the song merely because it lacks a second verse.

Everybody else who has commented on this thread has, in addition to correctly observing that the song is short and incomplete, expressed an opinion about the song's musical qualities which we all agree would remain the same if new verses were added since those verses would follow the same melody.

You ask: "If you have a melody to the 1st verse, and lyrics tend not to be the problem, why would you find it difficult to write a 2nd or 3rd?" Again, I wouldn't find this difficult. I haven't done it yet because, as I have stated: "I don't want to record it in its full format until I have the equipment, skills and knowledge of production as well as ideally a band rather than just myself with an acoustic guitar."

I think we may be going around in circles.

I'd be interested to hear what you think about the song. For example, since you think it's too short, do you think it is worth expanding?

[Mark Ryan]

Yeah, I'm sure lots of people have lots of incomplete songs lying around. It's just not what we're discussing. The point is nobody else on the forum is pretending that they cannot make a judgment on the song merely because it lacks a second verse.

Everybody else who has commented on this thread has, in addition to correctly observing that the song is short and incomplete, expressed an opinion about the song's musical qualities which we all agree would remain the same if new verses were added since those verses would follow the same melody. 

I'd be interested to hear what you think about the song. For example, since you think it's too short, do you think it is worth expanding?

My initial post actually wasn't commenting on the song, nor was it even aimed at yourself. Another poster asked a question regarding why a song has to be a certain length and I answered it as best I could.
The song itself for what it's worth I actually thought had a lot of good qualities as far as melody is concerned. I thought it was very Stone Roses. The vocal effect which some didn't like, I actually think really suits the style of the song. I'm sure you're aware of the need for more instrumentation, and for this song that "Manchester" sound would work really well as I can hear the jangly guitars of Johnny Marr in there and a big backline. I think another verse or 2 and a middle 8 which lifts the song out of the current chord progression and you could have a really good song. Even an instrumental middle 8 would work, similar to Panic by The Smiths. If lyrics aren't a problem for you then I would really like to see you complete this piece and give it a full production, as what was there was enjoyable, and has the makings of a good track.

[The Quark Remark]

Hey!

I like how simple the song is! It was unexpected how your voice suddenly appeared. First I wasn`t too sure about this but now I really like it. It makes the song more interesting!

The bits where you sing very high sound a bit unclear to me. I know why you are doing this and I think you shouldnt change it - improve it;)

I really like the soundeffects! It fits perfect in this song!

The song is short and that is good! If you want to make it longer you need - to my mind - more instruments (maybe you find some guys for a band?) - I can imagine this could be a very good song! It has potential!!

Good job!!

[tone]

Just a quick word to the wise here.

A song can be as long or as short as you want it to be. It can have one verse or 18. I personally really enjoy short songs that don't conform to 'standard' structures.

Mark, your attitude does come across as very arrogant, so I ask you once again to please think before you type and remember your manners. Just because you think you're an expert doesn't mean you have to insist everyone accepts your opinion as fact.

This is a fly-by posting, so apologies to Michilini for not listening to your song.