The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Recording => Topic started by: domstone86 on February 26, 2012, 01:41:48 PM
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Ok this question has probably been asked before, but I'm going to ask again.
What microphone do I buy?
I'm not really wanting to spend over £200, but I'm looking for something that will sit in my mixes and when I finally get my mixing to a high enough level, can be considered industry standard.
I've linked my soundcloud to show you what genre I am mixing to.
www.soundcloud.com/domstone86
Ideally I want something that requires as little post editing as possible to keep the sound natural. I want something with body, but also transparency. And if possible, something that'll work decent for an acoustic guitar.
Unfortunately, there's so much choice to choose from, and I'm stuck! =[
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I'm angling towards the SE Electronics SE2200A. On my soundcloud test search, it has a certain character to it that I quite like. Where's Ramshackles when you need him :P
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Dont rule out the dynamics - Shure sm57, Shure sm7B. Michael Jackson recorded the vocals for thriller on a '57.
The sm57 is also a general go-to for mic'ing up electric guitar amps. I've got 2 - however I dont really find a use for them on vocals (I have them mostly for live use and amps). But they can be dependable when on a budget and can come at a great price (think I paid £60 each for mine 2nd hand)
Shure KSM27 is another budget one that Ronan Chris Murphy raves about...
http://www.oktavamod.com/ - a company that sells modified mic's. The idea being to take very cheap mic's and 'mod' them to get them close to classic Neumann mics. I got the 'Ultimate SDC Mod' from them a short while ago. Sounds better than any other acoustic guitar mics I have...
They sell modded LDC's starting at about $350 (thats about £200?) and they have lots of info on what they do to each mic and shootouts (against U87's, U67's etc)
Golden Age Project R1 Mk3 Active - I think it is just within your budget. They have other mic's but this is the only one I have tried - It's pretty much the only mic we use for all female vocals. very thick sound (kind of the opposite of the rode nt1-a), very detailed and great for voices that are naturally bright/a little thin
Rode make a lot of mics. NT1-A is a very popular, good all round mic. I found that as my recording skills got a little better I got more and more annoyed by the brightness of the NT1-A. It's bright to the point of being harsh. I still use it for male backing vocals. Although, if I had other options perhaps not...it is a gooood all round mic though and will give decent results on whatever you put it on.... When I have enough money I'll probably send it to oktavamod to get it upgraded.
The SE mic you've looked at I have no experience with. These mics are generally like the NT1-A. Dependable, well made, perhaps a little too harsh....the same goes for the audio technica
AT2020. Thats another popular budget one.
Ones I would steer clear of are Behringer C1, Samson C1 (might be called something else but I think it is C something. The Behringer and Samson are the same mic, from the same chinese factory, with different badges :P). AKG perception is not thought of very well either....
I had a Rode M3, which I thought was rubbish...and earlier versions of the Golden Age Project microphone I mentioned (apparently Mk1 and Mk2 were rubbish, aswell as the non-active version).
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I'm no expert Dom but I love the Rode NT1000 Condenser Microphone that I'm currently using. I use it for all of my acoustic guitar work, the classical and the steel string guitars as well as vocals on my projects Search for "10 things she said" in the review section to get an idea of how it sounds. Everything that I've recorded for Kafla: Being Human, In These Moments, and Dead Of Winter all relied on this microphone. I believe that he used the Rode NT1-A for the main vocal that features on these tracks. I'm sure there are many good mics out there but the above is what I use and I am very happy with it.
Hope this helps a little.
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When deciding what mic you might want to take a look at the specs and frequency response charts. These can be a bit varying as it all depends on how it was measured, whether they measure just the capsule or the whole mic etc, but they can give you an idea. The SE mic has a 2dB lift centered around 12Khz and slightly rolls off below 500hz. So it will probably have a fair bit of presence ('in your face') and sound bright.
Contrast them with some 'classic' mics. E.g the Neumann U87 has a 2dB peak centered more around 7KHz. It's then dead flat down to ~60Hz where it rolls off slightly..... Anyway, that wont give you an idea of the quality of the mic, but some hints as to the kind of sound it might give.
This is going into uber-minute-detail but, if you know the sound of your preamp then you might think about how it would sound with X mic. E.g a super bright preamp teamed up with a super bright mic? Or you have a vintage sounding preamp so you might want to team it up with a 'vintage' sounding mic...etc etc etc
If you want a general purpose mic I would always go for ones with flatter freq responses aswell...
Having said all that, remember that if you are in a limited room (bedroom or whatever less-than-great-acoustics room), you will always generally run into the limitations of the room before most mics...
Anyho, here is a good article:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep06/articles/microphones.htm
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I had a look at all the different mics, and whilst very impressed with the sound of the modded mics, I'm quite interested in the Golden Age Projects R1. I heard a sample here , though am struggling to find many other samples. My singing voice unfortunately doesn't have much depth to it, and the sound from that mic sounds like it would naturally draw an emphasis to the tones that are otherwise lost in recording.
Only problem is, I don't know where to buy them or how much they cost!
I've also decided to steer well clear of any mic that has any presence boost because I've ALWAYS had problems in the 1-4khz range and constantly have to flatten the signal, which isn't good at all :(
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Well, these songs of ours are all on the GAP:
http://soundcloud.com/ramshackles/bluebell-woods
http://soundcloud.com/ramshackles/pair-of-paupers/s-Y42vy
http://soundcloud.com/ramshackles/sister/s-zbF0O
I can let you know what we did to the vocals aswell if it is your final choice...
We got ours straight from the company:
http://goldenagemusic.mamutweb.com/Shop/List/Ribbon-Microphones/154/1
It's the first one.
My warnings would be:
- its a figure 8 pattern, so if you dont want to pick up room sound you need to make sure there are no reflections off the wall behind it aswell as in front of it...
- it's perhaps a little more noisy than some mics, Ive not found it to be a problem.
- Theres a lot of talk about needing preamps suited to ribbon mic's cause of differing impedance output of ribbon mics. With the active version of this mic I dont have a problem with the preamps Ive use (focusrite isa, spl goldmike, DIY 1073 style pre's)
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I've really taken a liking to your material James. At first I wasn't so sure, being out of my comfort zone, but I admire your ingenuity :)
I checked the website, and £172 is great.
I noticed you have a very crisp sound from your tracks, is that from editing? And the guitars sound great in Sister, is that the same mic?
Just curious, but what mic did you use for the vocals in Bridges and Balloons?
My interface actually has fairly quiet preamps, though I can't really judge the quality, purely because headphones are the best quality input source to have graced them so far! But the mic input impedance is 2.2 kOhm. That of course is meaningless to me for now, but it'll probably be relevant :P
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Hmmm...lets see...the vocals generally had PSP NobleQ as an insert, probably cutting at around 2-3K and boosting at around 10K....and there is generally a high pass filter engaged aswell...
Compression is most likely either from Waves' CLA2A (emulation of the LA2A) or a hardware LA3A DIY clone thing.... Or sometimes they are set up as 2 separate sends and both returns mixed in with the main track (annoying to do with hardware into the daw...hence my goal to get a mixer)
And reverb from a lexicon unit...(although I generally feed the reverb return to a seperate stereo track in cubase and add some plugins to edit it)
The acoustic guitars on sister were probably mic'd with an SM-81, or perhaps an SM-81 on the neck with either the GAP or NT1-A more toward the body....
I never use the GAP as the main mic on guitar...it sounds crap. It's fine as a second mic for stereo micing or to add some room ambience or a bit more depth to the guitar, but the bulk of the sound is generally from the sm-81 (at least until I got my new acoustic mics...)
So, thats about the bulk of the editing that goes on....I suppose I could post a raw vocal/edited vocal from one of the tracks (if I can dig it up)....
The mic for bridges and balloons was the GAP aswell.
Whats your interface? 2.2K is fine and normal. My little manual (its 1 sheet of paper :P) recommends a load of >1K
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Wow! Really, my knowledge of outboard and plugins is severely limited. I wouldn't be able to tell one from the next, and I have no idea how you find this stuff! I'm assuming there's forums (Maybe even this one) that spreads the word on certain effects? I know it's a stupid question, and outside the scope of this thread, but what advantage would I have using one of your said plugins, in replacement over say, iZotope Oxygen?
The GAP certainly sounds like something I'd want to use price and performance wise for my vocals, and unless a better suggestion is made, I may be going for that! The SM-81 certainly gives the guitars a transparent sheen to them, do you consider that good value for money, as it's pretty pricey compared to their 57's!
If you could deliver a raw vocal that'd be great, however I think I've heard what I need to :) Sorry for all the questions, you're so elaborated with your replies, I end up with more questions than answers!
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Lol :D
Well...I think the Izotope thing is meant more as a 'mastering' plugin than for mixing, whatever that means...
It's kind of about having different 'flavours'....I have really only a few plugins (although Ive tried demos for a lot :P) and I really like these kind of 'vintagey' sounds as you know so I generally go for emulations of hardware..
Different plugins have different sounds and the same is true of hardware. E.g compressors can be very brutal and harsh or very clean/smooth/transparent. Just like different mics sound different. You can get demo's of just about every waves plugin. It's worth getting a bunch of the compressors together and spending a few hours just using them all on the same track to see what they do. ¨
TBH, complicated all-in-one plugins like oxygen just seem to confuse me. Im more at home with something that looks like a hardware unit aswell, with knobs to turn lol. I dont know why as Im not old geezer who grew up turning knobs (!!) but having stuff like that always appealed more than lots of graphs to look at and things to click. And the less parameters to adjust, the better :D
But I basically own a couple of compressor plugins, a couple of EQ plugins and a couple of other ones...not much at all...
There is a new guy on here who is apparently a pro producer....also called James....erm, James Nightingale or something? Anyway, if he is looking perhaps he can shed a bit more light....
I like, or liked the sm-81 and it was actually recommended by another recording dude...Works well on acoustic, all the acoustics on the EP were recorded with it. I think it is GREAT value for money as they can be pretty cheap 2nd hand. But now Ive got that modded stereo pair and I love them...
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Well...I think the Izotope thing is meant more as a 'mastering' plugin than for mixing, whatever that means...
It's kind of about having different 'flavours'
That actually REALLY spoke to me haha. It's a mastering plugin because it has a particular way of useage that may not be particularly tailored to the track that is being edited in question? So basically, if I wanted to make my piano warm not muddy, instead of just whacking some iZotope EQ and compression on it which does the job well on a final mix, I would want a plugin that would work particularly well with that instrument.
Now I just have to incorporate that knowledge with absolutely no idea what plugins to use haha.
iZotope confused me at first, and I initially just used the presets with some tweaking, but a week of playing around with it, I'm pretty confident with most aspects of it, and it is a pleasure to use.
I might save the acoustic guitar mics for when I get an acoustic guitar hehe, which will be another subject alltogether ;)
Is the waves plugin suite as good as people say? I hear mixed reviews, but I think that's just because of how much it costs! Would you recommend checking out different EQ's as well as Compressors, because I've noticed that they can vary pretty well too. (Though not with the compressors because I'm ignorant!)
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I love my rode nt1a
I am not technical in any way but I can't believe what this mic delivers for around £140 - and that was with stand, pop shield and lead
Pure magic :D
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Just saw my name mentioned (Nightingale indeed....the Cheek of it lol!!)
This is a long thread that I have lost track of.
The important questions:
(1) what instruments do you need the mic for??
(2) What style of music do you produce?
(3) existing hardware and software please?
(4) WHERE do you record - what does the room sound like and how much outside noise do you have to deal with?
(5) Budget?
Although I think you might have ordered already, judging from other threads :)
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Nope not ordered yet! Just intending to within the next month, might scour ebay as well.
I don't know what style I produce really, I did put a link at the top to show you :) www.soundcloud.com/domstone86
Hardware: Tascam US800 audio interface, and a very fast and capable computer. Software I'm trying to migrate from Sonar to Reaper, and my knowledge of plugins is severely limited.
I'm going to record in my bedroom, though really, I hope to deal with the acoustics via treatment, rather than limiting my choice of microphone. My computer is the main problem with noise, though there's a decent watercooling solution that would make it practically silent.
Budget, around the £200 mark, willing to pay slightly more for something exceptional, but the mic I've been looking at that Ramshackles suggested costs around £172 depending on current exchange rate.
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Raw and treated vocals through the GAP:
http://snd.sc/yWpUcM
http://snd.sc/Ayk1Zk
Treatment on that track was - PSP nobleQ plugin (EQ), CLA-2A plugin (compressor) and reverb as a send effect from the lexicon. Thats all (there was probably some volume automation although Im not sure on this track...)
Raw and treated vocals through the Rode NT1-A:
http://snd.sc/yrdsAm
http://snd.sc/xNCgkr
Treatment on the track was - PSP nobleQ plugin (EQ), CLA-2A (compressor) and de-esser as inserts. Another compressor setup as a send, its the 'Renaissance Compressor', (waves again. Thats all the compressors I have from them - LA2A and renaissance). Reverb was from my lexicon mpx200 as a send effect. The whole thing was passed through a little DIY unit I have that has no name. I call it the vintage maker lol. It's just some transformers and tubes....
Waves is big plugin company, just like UAD. I have a small number of their plugins, mostly they are ones from the 'modeling' range - ones that are based on real hardware. I have no idea if they sound like the actual hardware, but I think they sound good. The way I would characterise the plugins seems to be the same way that people would characterise the corresponding hardware...anyho. It's worth trying out their demos I guess, as you can. They arent cheap plugins, but every month there is a 'plugin of the month' which is on sale and they seem to have sales ALL the time :p. I've never paid full price for one of their plugins....
Oh and you didnt mention to James NightHAWK (sorry, lol), so I will - it's a vocal mic that we are after. I'm presuming solely for vocals?
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Sorry James, didn't forget you!
I like the way you treat the vocals, might steal that technique if you don't mind!
I never really liked the lexicon plugin that much. I don't know why, just didn't do it for me, but maybe that's just because I've used it in the wrong application.
Lol at your naming of the Vintage Maker. :)
I'll have a look at the Waves site then, didn't know they were modelled around real hardware! Also might have a look at different compressors available now I'm aware that it actually makes a difference!
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Sorry James, didn't forget you!
I like the way you treat the vocals, might steal that technique if you don't mind!
I never really liked the lexicon plugin that much. I don't know why, just didn't do it for me, but maybe that's just because I've used it in the wrong application.
Lol at your naming of the Vintage Maker. :)
I'll have a look at the Waves site then, didn't know they were modelled around real hardware! Also might have a look at different compressors available now I'm aware that it actually makes a difference!
My lexicon isnt a plugin, so might sound different......
The waves stuff that is modelled on hardware is modelled on hardware, the other stuff isnt ;D
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I may have the perfect Mic choice for you.
Alas, it is at my studio, and I forget the name. I'll look it up later in the week and repost. It was only about £150, 10 years ago. It is a large diameter Audio Technica Mic and I still use it today alongside my neumann. It is warm and fresh sounding, if a little too bright but this is (a) easily EQ'able and (b) maybe not an issue with home recording. Probably only available on the second hand market now.
This seems to be the current model (companies tend to refresh lines as the years roll on)
http://www.dv247.com/microphones/audio-technica-at2050-multi-pattern-large-diaphragm-side-address-microphone--58646
Check out some reviews on google. And you might be able to find it closer to £200 with some shopping around too :)
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I just realised that if I say James, I'm speaking to both of you....
Nighthawk, do you have any dry audio samples of this microphone? I tend to find that the more something requires EQ to correct the frequency response, the less natural the mic is going to sound, and the less it will shine through. The specs look good, but that doesn't mean too much!
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I don't have that mic; that is a successor to a model I have.
I am sure someone online has done that for you, google away!
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If your budget will stretch I'd take a look at the shure sm7b (as someone said earlier) for male vocals mic without the hyped top end.
bear in mind it's a dynamic mic and will need a preamp with a fair amount of gain though.
If you dont have a good amout of gain in your preamp consider the use of a triton fethead maybe.
good luck in your quest.
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Last weekend I found a secondhand Rode NT2-A. Haven't really had a lot of time to test it out yet, but it looks (sounds ;) ) very promessing. New it costs around 230£ (depends on currency rate of course), but the one I found went for 125£. Was a real bargain. It's a pretty old mic, but perfectly working, very well maintained.
Also the NT1-A is supposed to be good. Maybe you should have a look at those?
Greetings
SD
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I've been using an AKG1000S for acoustic guitar.Great vocal mic too.Great $200 microphone.
Glenn
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Best budget mic I've ever found is the Studio Projects C1. I picked one up for about £120. I've used a few different ones before and I think this is the nicest. Nice full sound and not too much top end.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=studio+projects+c1&_sacat=See-All-Categories
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Hiya Dom,
I am a massive fan of Rode mics, I have a few & I love them all, I reckon an NT1 A would be a great one for you. Whatever one you do go for, spend a lot of time experimenting with positioning etc etc to get the best out of it..... good luck
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I really like the SE 2200T tube microphone for vocals and acoustic guitar
They are usually around the £330 mark
However, there are some available for £199
The one I got was an early production model that is identical to the £330 models except it didn't have the 10db or low cut filter switches - which I would take care within the DAW anyway
I think the tube really does help the sound and this is a great "budget" mic to have