The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Feedback on Finished songs => Topic started by: Kafla on September 20, 2012, 08:57:12 AM
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http://soundcloud.com/andrewcruse/ghosts
Hey everyone ;D
Looking for advice / critique on any part of this song - production, song, lyrics etc
I am still open to tweaking it / taking it apart as I have been struggling with it - getting lost
Theres times I think its good - other times I want to tweak even the most minute detail - so frustrating this songwriting curse sometimes ???
Ghosts
I try to remember where it all ends
A spark in the ether
Light in the lens
A kiss when your sleeping and one when you awake
Fear comes strong before your'e sleeping
Night sends all her ghosts to haunt (break) you
This is all I offer you
(My fears grow strong before I'm sleeping
You sent all you sent all your saints to save me
This is all I have to give)
Into confession
Inside chapel walls
We're dealing with feelings bigger than us
I'll never leave you , I'll nail it to the cross
There's got to be someway to reach you tonight
Optical light and telephone lines
A collection of pixels is not close enough
The resolutions there
The definition in every line
http://soundcloud.com/andrewcruse/ghosts
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I`ve got to whizz off to work now...but i think this should be listened to a few time s before comment...but the melody is immediately pleasing.
Back now!...This is a candidate for a professional make over...with a good engineer,i see this being a greater song,,,it`s slow but firm build is done very well.....the lyrics are good...nice sort of drama..
Think i`l write summat new this evening,,i feel inspired.
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another great piece of work kaf.....loved it, good melodies, great singing/keyboards. Very nice all round feel. Thought the change in the strings around 2.00 was unnecessary, and didn't quite work. But that's just my taste. I'm sure Elton John would make a fortune with this song ;D......I'll give him a call ;D ;D ;D
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Very fine piece of work. Beautifully played, sung and arranged. I think the chorus in particular is absolutely beautiful. I think it stands up fine as it is and i really can't think of any way to improve it.
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Another great track, Kafla!
I don't think it needs much tweaking TBH. I really like the production, esp. when the drums kick in after the first chorus. But I agree on the strings change. Not that it doesn't fit in per se, but it's a bit to prominent for my taste.
Only other remark that I can make is the 'offer' part of the chorus. Could use a bit more flow IMO. But great song overall! As always ;)
SD
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i love this a lot. the piano tones set up a perfect emotional theme that is expounded upon both lyrically and component-wise. the drums come in at exactly the perfect place. some of the string arrangements have this George Martin influence to my ears. if you're looking for perhaps some advice to work further on this one, what i would offer is to bring in some type of U2/Edge echo-delay guitar patterns...i'm getting this Bono-esque feel in both the songwriting and great vocal delivery, hence my suggestion. i'm not saying to emulate U2 directly, but incorporate some of Edge's linear guitar approaches...maybe introduce them sparingly in the intro phase, and rhythm them out when the drums kick in and build from there... listen to "With Or Without You" perhaps for a brain-storming session on creative options for more color and shading to what is already an impressive aural canvas.
nice one, mate :)
-Daren
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Can't fault this mate, really well put together ,a stand out album track no doubt
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lovely tune , sounded really good , your voice is excellent as i've said before , kinda richard ashcroft like. maybe the bass stands out a little too much ??
great song , and with songs like this you should be on the radio . ;D
just going in for a third listen......
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As with most of your stuff, it's the vocals that really sell this song :)
Very beautiful vocal melody (I especially like the "strong before you're sleeping" part), goes great with the piano, too. The break starting at 2:58 builds the suspense for the next part quite nicely, really liked this part
I agree that you picked the spot for the drums to set in just perfectly. Gotta say though that I'm not a fan of the drum sounds per se, they sound a little too tight and compressed to me... But maybe that's just my personal taste. (I did however notice this in several of your songs.)
Oh, and I think the mic might have clipped at 2:40... no biggie though
Gotta figure out a way to make soundcloud repeat a song in a loop ;)
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Another song that demonstrates a consistently high standard of songwriting. The highlight is your vocal performance and the lyrics are excellent. Whilst it's been well produced, I can hear different directions that I would steer the production in to provide more dynamics i.e. contrast between more delicate sections and other sections that might benefit from a fuller production. I don't want to dwell on production preferences as this is a great song regardless of the treatment applied.
Well done Andy. I know you'll continue to strive for perfection in all areas of songwriting and production. It's always a pleasure for me to hear your songs!
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Hi Kaf
Really enjoyed listening to this song, great movement in the melody and chords. I'm not going to comment further on the songwriting as I think it's the strongest part of the picture, but I can't help feeling that the arrangement feels a bit crowded, especially in the first half of the song.
It sounds like the piano is competing with the other instruments for space a little bit. They're rhythmically all a bit too similar, which I think is what creates that slightly claustrophobic feel.
Other than that, your arrangement has nice dynamics, although I feel they could be emphasised a little more. But hats off to you for doing it yourself - you're still way ahead of the game when it comes to production than I am.
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Thanks everyone - particularly Andy 544 - you really have made my day with your comments - seriously ;D
I respect all the advice - producing the songs really frustrates and excites me in equal measures
I have been producing now for almost a year and I am nowhere near where I want to be - I can hear better arrangements and dynamics in my head
But I listened to my first demos from a year ago a few nights ago and it reassured me how far I have came
Thanks everyone
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th intro sounds kind of 'erasure'esh ! very nice kaf
good lyric beautifully sung , can hear your heartbeat..
the bridge seems to wain a little, themomentum..good point for three or four mandolins through a fuzz box perhaps not, but an extra lift ...? just a wee smidge of fairy dust .
and dare i wander down knobs and dials avenue for i perseiveth something amiss with the bass or something in the low end ? gets quite boomy and distracting as it progresses.
its noticeable in cans but on the speakers its fine..?
dont mean a negative, great track
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reminds me of something i cant put my finger on. Nice warm vocals, good job. Lovely melody to the vocal in places. Drums sound like the weak link-real ones would be lovely. Piano and vocals are great. Enjoyed that.
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This is very, very stong writing.
The restraint is remarkable. The lines of vocals have plenty of open space. The piano line is sparse yet just enough.
The change at 2.16 is very powerful, a wonderful surpise and perfectly timed.
The lyrics are great
There's got to be someway to reach you tonight
Optical light and telephone lines
A collection of pixels is not close enough
The resolutions there
The definition in every line
This walks the fine line between metaphor and statement. I love the sentiment of modern tech bringing us closer and yet not compensating on a real, human level. Nothing like real human contact. "Ghost" makes wonderful sense in context here.
As a demo is is perfectly fine at presenting the song. The arrangement largely works a charm. I would perhaps have brought the drums in a little less busy, allowing one more gear change before the change.
The only "issues" with the production I have are the standard home recording limitations (programmed stings/drums), so, as I say, really really great work within your set up ;D
The hint of religiosity falls flat for me. Stanza three seems to be a misfit. But, I am sure there is reasoning in which case leave it well alone. I does provide an old vs new to the lyrical ideas however.
The vocal is perhaps the strongest I have heard from you. A great balance of emotion and detail, with great pitching (only once could I hear the autotuner in action this time, and barely at that!)
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This is very, very stong writing.
The restraint is remarkable. The lines of vocals have plenty of open space. The piano line is sparse yet just enough.
The change at 2.16 is very powerful, a wonderful surpise and perfectly timed.
The lyrics are great
There's got to be someway to reach you tonight
Optical light and telephone lines
A collection of pixels is not close enough
The resolutions there
The definition in every line
This walks the fine line between metaphor and statement. I love the sentiment of modern tech bringing us closer and yet not compensating on a real, human level. Nothing like real human contact. "Ghost" makes wonderful sense in context here.
As a demo is is perfectly fine at presenting the song. The arrangement largely works a charm. I would perhaps have brought the drums in a little less busy, allowing one more gear change before the change.
The only "issues" with the production I have are the standard home recording limitations (programmed stings/drums), so, as I say, really really great work within your set up ;D
The hint of religiosity falls flat for me. Stanza three seems to be a misfit. But, I am sure there is reasoning in which case leave it well alone. I does provide an old vs new to the lyrical ideas however.
The vocal is perhaps the strongest I have heard from you. A great balance of emotion and detail, with great pitching (only once could I hear the autotuner in action this time, and barely at that!)
Cheers Pez!
And mr Nooms - thank you for listening - your reviews always make me smile ;D I shall investigate that dark humming :)
James - seriously thanks for your kind and courteous review. You really have thought about this song - that means a lot mate ;D
Its hard to explain the stanza you speak about without explaining the true meaning of the song - and for personal reasons I don't want to do that.
But those lines came to me whilst I was at chapel a few Sunday's back and in light of the predicament I was in they just made perfect sense - infact I remember feeling quite overwhelmed at that point - but its so personal I accecpt it might not translate very well.
Thanks James - your thoughts really have helped settle a few things I have had on my mind ;)
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Hi Kafla,
Nice song.
I agree with James about the strings. I like them in there, but getting top notch midi produced sounds is so difficult.
Good vocal. I remember listening to your songs many months ago and they were always one of the strongest parts.
All the best,
Digger
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all about the vocals def got a bit of ashcroft in there! the change after a couple minutes is mega with the strings! good song enjoyed the listen! great song this would get better with each listen like, pretty epic in bits!
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How did I miss this one!!! :o
I have just one word - Beautiful!!!
This is the best vocal I have heard from you and one of my favourites from the forums
The song itself is wonderful
I agree with the comment about the drums sounding a little "tight" - perhaps less compression, some 'verb and more panning would spread them out a little
I think some vocal harmonies on the chorus would sound sweet and could be mixed to give a "ghostly" flavour to compliment the track
I can also hear some "chunking" guitars, an acoustic strumming along and some of those "U2" esque things ABV was mentioning
If you would like some guitar stems to play with I would be happy to record a few bits for you to try out if you want - e.g. a verse, chorus & bridge in various styles / tones
Just PM if this is something you would like to play with and we can sort something out
Great job - I really enjoyed listening to this one
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So i took Boydie up on his offer and asked him for some guitar tracks - I think the man totally excelled here ;D Genius mate - sincere thanks for your time - you really made me very happy ;D
I also listened to all the advice I got around this song and tried to incorporate all the feedback
I have spent a long, long time on this and have added in several harmonies
I would appreciate another listen if you have time
The orginal link is still valid as well as this http://soundcloud.com/andrewcruse/ghosts
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I haven't heard this song before but bloody hell Kaf, are you going to songwriting school or something, every time you post something it just gets better and better. I absolutely love this and the harmonies send shivers down my spine, you should be really proud of this, and your voice sounds terrific by the way!
Love love love it
xxx
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I'm writing as I listen, first version first, Mate this is beautiful, really really good. I wish there was stuff like this on the radio. This is truly awesome Kaf. I agree with the Richard Ashcroft references, I'd actually say I prefer your voice. This is such a good song, the production is really strong, the vocal harmonies are excellent.
Right I'm listening to the Boydie version now...erm.. I might be being thick but all links lead to the same version I think ???
I'm not sure if I have heard the new or original version but either way I think it's great.
Well done Kaf
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Like HABITAT,,not sure if i heard the new one,,,but theres electric guitar on it so,,probably did....
It`s a sound thats in it`s own comfort zone...centres heavily around the chorus..and why not..it`s hooky,,
One thing i don`t understand about you lot that record,,is you never take advantage of any female singers that show themselves on here now and again...this as duet written all over it.... Sheryl Crow and Kid Rock. ;)
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Wow, this really is great work you have done here !! :)
The guitars are awesome, and so are the vocal harmonies.
Oh, and I think STC might be on to something with that duet suggestion...
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Just to clarify, both links do go to the NEW version with guitars
It was an absolute pleasure working with KAFLA on his track
It is so rewarding to "show" someone what you heard in your head whilst you review their song, and even more rewarding when they like it and use it!!!!
I originally said to KAFLA to save the guitar motif for the second verse so the the first verse remained just piano and vocals - however, I must admit that on hearing this version he has mixed it in perfectly
The harmonies are absolutely spectacular and the song was an absolute joy to work on and is still one of my favourites
Great job and I think this one will be going on my ipod with a few others from around these parts ;D ;)
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wow, your doing it again Kafla, sending the shivers all the way to the Netherlands
and that guitar track is adding to that feeling
solemn, perfect & epic
man, this is super!!! send it to publishers!!!!!
super version! great guitar! (but i was hoping for one of those more outgoing guitar solos at the end....but that is just me...because it issssss splendid)
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this sounds like a million seller andy i could imagine this at the olympic games closing ceremony with boydie on the roof of buckingham palace! yes its another great song in the long line of great songs you have coming out of kafla studios
i didnt hear the original but it was nice to hear a song of yours with electric guitar
oh im back at the olympics & the songs playing & the dutch team seem to be embaressed at the dancing of one of there supporters ;D
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kafnboyd
istum gigantem melodiam morietur culmus terram.
valde catchybol
vos cant dicere aequius quam in ulla lingua
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yes, right, exactly what Nooms says! I couldn't say it better than that....speechless, that is what we are
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Thanks everyone ;D
Got to say habitat every few months someone joins who is mr enthusiastic about the forum - it was me a few years ago and Boydie not so long ago - it's a pleasure to be here - when I listen to my first mixes I can't believe how for this forum has dragged me along - and I naively thought I was good at the start :o
Thank you Flossie - love STC's duet suggestion - you up for it?
Michael - cheers my friend - working on your song as I type ;)
DB - always good that you have my back :o
And welcome back Tina - the forum needs your patter
thanks Nooms - I think ;D
And Boydie - what a nice guy you are - awesome contributor to the forum - sensational playing on this - so many different styles - lifted this to a new level ;D
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i was just trying to say..
this giant melody shall stalk the earth.
very catchyboled
you cant say fairer than that in any language
rather than sounds fantastic and got carried away on google translator..
really strong this, up another level great radio song
well done guys
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Got to say habitat every few months someone joins who is mr enthusiastic about the forum - it was me a few years ago and Boydie not so long ago - it's a pleasure to be here - when I listen to my first mixes I can't believe how for this forum has dragged me along - and I naively thought I was good at the start :o
I feel that dragging force as we speak :D
I've already created a 'listen and laugh' folder for all my pre-forum music haha...it's terrible :-\
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Got to say habitat every few months someone joins who is mr enthusiastic about the forum - it was me a few years ago and Boydie not so long ago - it's a pleasure to be here - when I listen to my first mixes I can't believe how for this forum has dragged me along - and I naively thought I was good at the start :o
I feel that dragging force as we speak :D
I've already created a 'listen and laugh' folder for all my pre-forum music haha...it's terrible :-\
Ha ha
You learn more here in a year that you could in a lifetime in textbooks
It really is a special place Mr Tone has created ;D
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Got to say habitat every few months someone joins who is mr enthusiastic about the forum - it was me a few years ago and Boydie not so long ago - it's a pleasure to be here - when I listen to my first mixes I can't believe how for this forum has dragged me along - and I naively thought I was good at the start :o
I feel that dragging force as we speak :D
I've already created a 'listen and laugh' folder for all my pre-forum music haha...it's terrible :-\
Ha ha
You learn more here in a year that you could in a lifetime in textbooks
It really is a special place Mr Tone has created ;D
Indeed it is, indeed it is :)
btw, I've just downloaded Ghosts, if that's ok? I'm putting together a folder of my fav's from the forum, just to listen to in the car :)
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How did I miss this! I thought I was keeping much or less up to date :o
This is really ace Kaf. I didn't think I was going to like it at first but before it was
half way through I was sold.
The strings were inspired especially on that bridging section. That was my favourite part
of the song.
Your vocals are very strong too mate, very nice indeed.
If I would add anything at all it would be that the piano seemed a little dull insead of crisp and bright.
Maybe you wanted the muffled tone but to my ears it was just a bit too dull.
Take nothing away though mate, this is really ace! ;D
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came back to this tonight and really enjoying it
gtr parts really help it and your vocals terrific and distinctive
that boomy low end thing i heard before has been sorted, least ways i cant hear it now..
like the up'down strings in the build
panning on the drums seems bit odd, dont sound in the centre, theyre doing all the right things but panning seems odd or something ?
superb though
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I'm going to try to review this as a brand new song as it's been several weeks since I last listened. So, without referring to my previous review: The overall impression is of a very big anthem. The piano beginning is excellent and sets the mood extremely well. I would definitely hold back on introducing the electric guitar so soon. If it's going to be in there at this early stage, I'd decrease the number of notes that are played even though they are few at the moment. I would introduce the guitar at 'fear comes strong' or perhaps even wait until verse 2 and allow the guitar chord work to start as it does followed by the lead work at 'fear comes strong before you're sleeping.' I reckon it must have been a difficult process, knitting all of the component parts together. The new guitars definitely enhance the mix but I think it all needs to sit together more harmoniously. Having said that, All of the ingredients are here and they are excellent. The song is very strong and the M8 in particular is a highlight of the writing process. I've listened through headphones and am now going to listen through my monitors now that everyone is up out of bed. :)
Overall, I feel that there is a better mix to be found but as I repeatedly say, the song conveys all of the ideas, communicating the great potential of the song.
Well done to both of you on a a successful collaboration!
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Hey Hey Hey beautiful forumites!
Wire in Habitat - I make all my songs downloadable - it makes me really happy when someone downloads one!
So I am still really pleased with this - what really encourages me is that I am beginning to anticipate what will get criticised but havent quite worked out how to fix it - ha ha
The piano is not quite right - I think its the actual piano sound foremost but I had spent so long adjusting the out of the box setting that I didnt have the heart to start again :o
The drums in the original mix were too thin so I attempted to fix this - initially spent days programming beats but I just couldnt get the right groove so I went for an apple loop (which I dont normally do ) this meant I had less control over the drums. I used a plug in and I think it improved the drums but it was damage limitation - they are panned a little oddly - but it was better than the previous thinness!
And yes the mix could be better - but lets be honest has there ever been a song posted on here that someone didnt think could be mixed better?
I ended up with 47 tracks on this one and had to incorporate Boydies (superb) guitars, put effects on them , eq them. I am really please with the mix here - it is for the moment the very capacity of what I am capable of - each instrument has a little space and it kind of gels.
Boydie didnt think that the guitars should go in from the start and I over ruled him - my main reasoning was that with just piano and vocal you could hear me shuffling about in the vocals - ha ha - but also so much comes in on the second verse - drums, bass, cello, grungy guitar, finger picked guitar - I felt it was acceptable to introduce the first guitar that little bit early - but either way surely it doesn't change the song that much?
I am so pleased that the majority of people commented on the harmonies - I spent a lot of time on them - making sure each part used the same phrasing and timing - as I am sure you are aware its not easy.
So overall very happy but completely agree with the little crits - what makes me most happy is that I personally have now finished this - I know I cannot do any better , I agree others could - but I finally feel that I can now put this to bed.
Thanks everyone - sincerely - particularly to Mr Boydie ;D
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but I finally feel that I can now put this to bed.
Probably the hardest decision to make when songwriting
As RED always tells me - songs are never finished, they are abandoned!
I think you made the right call here - you can always go back in the future but for now I think you are spot on to "put it to bed" as far as writing and production goes - and concentrate on getting it "out there" and working on new stuff!
Thanks everyone - sincerely - particularly to Mr Boydie
'twas an absolute pleasure - you know where I am if you need anything else ;)
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Hey Kafla
Being new to the forum, I've only just got around to listening to the song.
Really really enjoyed it! Love the lyrics particularly in the chorus - very haunting if you excuse the pun! You've got a great voice there too which is emotive and fits the style of the song. For me there are parts of this song, that for me makes me almost think of Elton John in some of his later work and could almost imagine him singing it. Please take this as a compliment! :)
I agree with the other posters that the drums for me are a little static and almost too quantized so could probably benefit from a bit more freedom. As a demo recording it gets the message across great. I think if the song had a professional production make-over, it would really help the song realise it's full potential.
Great work though!
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Great vocals..
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I would definitely hold back on introducing the electric guitar so soon. If it's going to be in there at this early stage, I'd decrease the number of notes that are played even though they are few at the moment. I would introduce the guitar at 'fear comes strong' or perhaps even wait until verse 2 and allow the guitar chord work to start as it does followed by the lead work at 'fear comes strong before you're sleeping.'
I concur with this from Paul :)
I love this song and with the guitar additions from Boydie it is so very close to greatness from an arrangement point of view.
Along with the careful use of the electric guitar, I would consider adding a subtle acc guitar - strummed cautiously, panned 75% right, to counter balance the electric motifs. Perhaps capoed midway up the neck on open chords to give a high-mid-heavy feel. That way it would stick out in the mix even at a lower volume. It could also add a percussive edge that would drive the piece nicely.
Just my 2 cents
Great song, as I have said
JNxx
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Cheers guys ;D
I appreciate you taking the time to listen again James - as I have said to Paul a by-product of you being a better producer is that you can hear things I cannot - but your guidance certainly helps and aides the development so thank you ;D
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I know it is
finished abandoned, but if you want a strummy acoustic line to try I will record a stem for you the next time I get the acoustic & mic out
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Im doing my infrequent catch up with reviewing so pulling up some old stuff. This is very anthemic.
The harmony on the chorus is excellent and although nothing much happens in terms or arrangement, mood or tempo in the first part of the chorus, that harmony really lifts and takes it somewhere else.
I'm not sure what I think about the electric guitar that comes in at the start. I think maybe there is too much of it..its kind of relentless throughout the song and it's not the most interesting guitar part I've heard..distracts from the vocal/melody a bit - which is the main and absolute best part :)
On a production note - the use of compression is way too much, especially on the drums. it's pumping like crazy in my ear buds...if you haven't listened on ear buds I suggest you do just so you can get an idea of what im talking about (its often harder to hear it on speakers)...when the drums come in you get this very loud attack and then suddenly the compressor kicks in like a maniac and pulls it down...so its going up down up down and sounds baaaad...
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Im doing my infrequent catch up with reviewing so pulling up some old stuff. This is very anthemic.
The harmony on the chorus is excellent and although nothing much happens in terms or arrangement, mood or tempo in the first part of the chorus, that harmony really lifts and takes it somewhere else.
I'm not sure what I think about the electric guitar that comes in at the start. I think maybe there is too much of it..its kind of relentless throughout the song and it's not the most interesting guitar part I've heard..distracts from the vocal/melody a bit - which is the main and absolute best part :)
On a production note - the use of compression is way too much, especially on the drums. it's pumping like crazy in my ear buds...if you haven't listened on ear buds I suggest you do just so you can get an idea of what im talking about (its often harder to hear it on speakers)...when the drums come in you get this very loud attack and then suddenly the compressor kicks in like a maniac and pulls it down...so its going up down up down and sounds baaaad...
Hey RS!
Yeah as I have already acknowledged the drums aren't right - but there is no compression on them so I have no idea what's causing it ???
In any event I have went to hell and back with this one so as Boydie says 'its been abandoned ' lol
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quote..
In any event I have went to hell and back with this one so as Boydie says 'its been abandoned ' lol
I hit this wall regularly writing lyrics..i`ve been working on one for 2 weeks ,which is unheard of for me..but it`s an important project and i have to get it right..