[Dutchbeat]

Hi, songwriters,

i have a question. I always do get a lot of comments on how i mix the vocals on my songs (too soft, lyrics not audible etc.), and i agree with these comments, well most of the time...

lately i had a few comments that the vocals should 'sit' better in the mix, and yes i could hear what they mean...but i also realised i have no clue how to get the vocals 'to sit better in the mix'. So, i am sort of remixing in the dark untill it sounds to me that the vocals are better placed in the mix.
Are there any general tips for this?, is about the eq, the panning, the volume or all of these, and is there a way to approach this in a more rational way?

[James Nighthawk]

Hey dutch.

Can you post a link to the one you want to work on...? I'll have a listen later and get back to you with any help I can offer 

[Dutchbeat]

thanks James, i appreciate that very much

current song is a work in progress, but i realise i have no general idea of how to approach mixing vocals....

does it really depend on the song...where one sort of can place the vocals so that they sit right in the mix?

one i have the song complete i will place it on a link for advice, thanks again

[Kafla]

Hey Dutchybaby!

I am by no means technical and I would listen to James 's feedback but I can't speak highly enough of the waves vocal rider

Basically you can set the level of your vocal and it automatically maintains that level though the whole mix - so no high and low parts - the singer can really express themselves and the levels will all be adjusted. It is not a compressor so the actual vocal performance it completely unchanged

Before I purchased this I was forever dropping parts of the vocal onto a different track to adjust the level and it got very messy

It cost about £40 and you need an ilok USB key £40 but it retails on waves for £250.

Honestly it's awesome

[Boydie]

Hey DB

Firstly I would suggest you bite James' hand off with this offer!

Secondly I would like to share how I have tried to overcome a similar issue

Many people think that the lead vocal is recorded/mixed as the final piece of the jigsaw

I have found it really useful to establish a different workflow - based on reading countless magazines, articles, forums etc.

The big revelation for me is that I now make the lead vocal the THIRD thing I add to the mix

To start with I get the BASS set-up - e.g. compression to remove spikes and levelled so it does not go above -6db

I then add the DRUMS - starting with the KICK to ensure it is in time with the BASS and EQ'd to fit together – and then adding the other drum elements

Then comes the LEAD VOCAL – I mix this to fit with the BASS and DRUMS both from an EQ perspective but most crucially the volume/level

With these 3 elements in place it is possible to get a feel for the mix and if it sounds full with just these 3 elements I know I am well on the way to a solid mix

All that is left is to carefully add the other elements without upsetting the solidity I have established using the usual suspects – EQ, levels, panning, effects etc.

It may be necessary to go back to the BASS, DRUMS and LEAD VOX to tweak slightly but this approach should help everything sit together


I am not stating any of this as “rules” but this is a workflow that has worked well for me and may be worth a try if you are doing something different

I am still learning my way through this stuff so I will also be interested to see James’ comments

[Ramshackles]

Hey DB.
Mixing anything is really dependent on the song and what works in 1 song might not work for another. Getting vocals to sit well in a mix is tricky and IMO starts right at the recording stage. Getting a well-done vocal, with minimal noise and no nasty effects (like boom/mud from being to close to the mic or unwanted reflections from the room) will take you most of the way there.
There are number of things I always do to a vocal which can help (although, the settings/amount of each thing I apply varies).

- Low pass filter on the vocal. Preamps often have one built in and I utilize the one on mine when recording, or I apply one when mixing. I pretty much nuke everything below 100Hz on all vocals, and the cutoff may increase depending on the song, singer, recording etc (on some backing vocals I've nuked up to 300Hz). If you have different EQ's available then try them all as they will all sound a bit different...

- Volume automation. The vocal rider thing kafla mentioned is an automatic volume automation - it just means changing the volume throughout the song (in DAW's you can usually just 'draw' in the volume with a mouse, or press some read/write button so it records your fader movements). The waves vocal rider can probably take you a long way there and it seems to work great for Kaf, but I found it didnt really take into account the backing track or the natural dynamics that you want in the track when I demoed it...so I went back to just using the automation panel in the DAW. Takes a bit longer, but more control.

- Compression. Quite a bit of discussion on here already about compression so I wont say more, but almost all my vocal tracks are compressed to varying degrees.

- EQ. I use less and less EQ as my tracking improves, but it still comes in handy to shape the vocal. I already mentioned a low pass filter. People often use whats called a 'presence boost' to lift vocals a little. Although too much can make them too far forward...

- Making a space. You can often make a vocal stand out without having to really do anything to the vocal. You just need to make a space for it. Panning of the instruments and EQ'ing the make a space in the frequencies can be helpful. I often use a different reverb on the vocals to the rest of the instruments aswell.


I could go on...but anyway, these things are very dependent on the track. Like James says, if you have a clip of it we can give you ideas.
What kind of equipment are you working with?

[SimonOlder]

It's all about the EQ!

Depending on what software you're using you might have a vocal pre set for male/female vocals but if not usually if you take off the the really low lows and push some higher mids (not too much) that helps a little. Sometimes it's worth taking off some higher mids too.

If it's EQ'd right you won't need to push the volume too high and then they can 'sit' at the right level.

Another way of helping the vocals sound clear is doubling them up or putting a really short delay on John Lennon stylee....

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[Dutchbeat]

Guys,i appreciate these tips
James, RS, Boydie, and Simon

also have been reading your recording tips, RS, and there is so much i can do better by just using common sense

really good, tips i will try to post the song for feedback in a moment

if Mrs DB allows it....

I have been struggling with Mrs. DB's vocals
all my life 
i mean songwise....recordingwise...you know..aahhh!!!!

oh, i got away with that, but Kafla, don't ever call me Dutchbaby again ok 

[Ramshackles]

I should go through those recording tips...now almost a year down the line and with proper studio work and a lot more home recording under my belt I'd probably change a lot Take them with a pinch of salt..

[seriousfun]

Its all about eq and mixing levels.

1. Dont let anything clip. Not even a single track regardless of the overall level of the song. And by this I mean that track should not clip any where in the chain. The pre amp, the daw, any plugins etc etc..  no clipping.

2. Pay attention to the eq next. We know that the vocals are going to be ove a wide range depending on whos singing. eg: a tenor will be between 130-500 kHz so it is a good idea to just tweak other instrument s down a little in eq over that range and it wil leave a hole for the vocals to come through. Having said that, drop the eq on the vocal outside this range as they are then taking up headroom on other instruments. A good rule of thumb is to only ever eq down, never boost. Kill evrything but the bass way down low with a shelf eq and that will get rid of mudiness.

3. Once you have the eq sorted, leave your main at 0db and adjust the fader levels for the individual tracks so that the main never clips. When you have it right you mix should be sounding pretty sweet.

4. If you are going to master the song, wether in house or by a pro, cut the main down 3db before you compile your wav file. This leaves the mastering paRT of the process a little room to move in making overall eq, compression etc.. adjustments. The mastering process will bring it back up to the desired level.

Thats my 4 cents worth, I hope it helps.

[dannylee]

You could try buying a pair of speakers called Auratone 5's known as Horrortones to some. Basically they let you hear the MID's which is where all the important stuff happens. Without proper monitoring that you are familiar with it's a job to get levels correct so that they will transfer to any other system properly.

Hope that helps,

Danny.

[domstone86]

Also, a slightly less signficiant trick is to set the 'distance' with delay and reverb. Something that I've been known to abuse, but it's very handy if you think the vocals sound good with the EQ etc, but either sound too distant or just too much attention taken away from the instrumental.

[The Mix Domain]

Hi, just to throw in another perspective on "sitting" the vocal into the mix...

Where you place the lead vocal in the mix is highly dependent on the song of course, but also the style of music you're working in. There are 5 main methods of getting the vocal to sit better, for instance, using vocal rides to "ride" the volume form one section of the song to another, using delay and reverb to add space around the vocal, use of panning to place it left to right, and of course EQ and compression to add clarity and depth.

The way I do it in my mixes is firstly, I listen to a lot of songs in that style first! This is critical for techniques used in the style you are working with. Secondly, a slightly different approach to Boydie, I start with the Drums, as the most important thing in mixing most styles of music is the Vocal, but then a very close second is the Snare! These two elements are usually "compete" as the loudest elements in most mixes. Therefore its imperative to get the snare sitting well within the drum kit first! Then I add in the Bass guitar and build the rhythm section so its nice and tight.

Thirdly I bring in the lead vocal, at this point, I try to get it to sit in the correct position in the stereo image, then I think about EQ just to get it sound reasonably good for now, as the mix builds around the vocal, I constantly go back and tweak EQ frequencies to keep it in the forefront of the mix!  By the end of it, the vocal solo'd by itself might not sound great, but in relation to the other elements it blends well and you can discern every syllable of the lyric (very important)!

If you add compression, ask yourself, what do I want to achieve with compression? as it can be used in different ways to create different effects. Sometimes if its been recorded with comp, it might only need a slight smudge of comp to bring it further in front of the other elements and closer to the listener.

If not then, you can use compression to control the dynamics, but be careful as you can suck the life out of a vocal performance by squashing all of the transients with a compressor! Therefore its best to just get it so that it works with the "timing" and rhythm of the vocal. That means, get the compressor to "breathe" in time with the vocal and indeed the song by setting the attack and release times correctly! You'll need a high threshold, and a high ratio, at least 10:1 to set the attack and release times, in time with the song.

Finally, a tip on delay and reverb. Most of the time, I actually try to keep the vocal dryer and more intimate/closer to the listener in the verses. Then I actually process the vocal differently in the choruses (depending on the song and the recording). But in general, I don't just use reverb. I use a combination of delay and reverb. Firstly I send the vocal to a short medium stereo delay, say about 140 ms. Then I send the delayed return to a plate reverb with hardly any pre-delay on it. But around 2 - 2.5 secs decay. This has the tendency to give the vocal much more depth and a larger space around it, making it more "open" in the mix!

Hope this helps as well as all the other great advice you've already received! :-)

Tony

[tone]

As a complete amateur and someone who's learning as they go, I feel qualified to chip in here :p

I've been studying hard and working on some mixing of my own these last few months, and here's what I've learned so far that feel appropriate to contribute:

Mixing is not a right or wrong kind of process. What I mean is, there are probably a hundred ways to mix any given song and have it sound great. And thousands of ways of doing it so that it sounds bad.... But the thing no-one can teach you is how to make your recording sound how your imagination tells you it should sound.

As for starting the mix with the drums or the bass or whatever, I'm sure that process works for some people, but the minute you reduce mixing to a forumula, I think you risk losing the magic.

What if your song has no drums, or no bass? Or what if the drums and the bass come in later? There are as many different approaches to mixing as there are songs to mix.

The bottom line seems to be from my humble perspective that mixing is like songwriting. You can read about it, ask about it, learn the theory behind it, but the only way you get better at it is by doing it over and over again.

Remember this: you've been listening to professionally recorded and mixed music all your life, so your ears know what sounds convincing and what doesn't. If you spend enough time fiddling with EQ, reverb, compression, level and such like, you'll probably stumble on a convincing sound... eventually. It's as much about how much time you've got to give to it as anything else.

Being a songwriter's hard enough. Being a producer as well is just showing off

Dunno if that helps, but it feels good to get it off my chest.

I would also echo some of the earlier comments - share the track with some forumites who are known for their massive mixing skillz - in private if necessary - and let them guide you a little. It's what friends are for, no?

Wow, just noticed this is an ooooooold thread

[Boydie]

Remember this: you've been listening to professionally recorded and mixed music all your life, so your ears know what sounds convincing and what doesn't. If you spend enough time fiddling with EQ, reverb, compression, level and such like, you'll probably stumble on a convincing sound... eventually. It's as much about how much time you've got to give to it as anything else.

I agree and disagree with this statement 

I agree that you will "absorb" a lot of information from listening to music through your life

But - this does not mean you will be able to know how to "get" that sound in your mix

Even though you may stumble upon the right mix (although I think this would be quite unlikely) there is no replacement for learning the skills and THEN gaining the experience by trying them out

Even after learning the tricks and techniques it can still be difficult stumbling upon the right mix 

However, I completely agree with your last sentence - you do need invest A LOT of time to get your head around production and mixing, which would be near impossible if you do not have a passion for it

You not only need to learn a wide range of fundamental skills you then need to learn how to apply them to your particular software/hardware

I really do sympathize with those who want to just be "songwriters" and are not interested in production (or do not have the equipment/ability), which is why I get so much out of helping people "produce" their tracks