[Neil C]

Listening to STC's Starlight got me thinking about modern radio pop and the quality of the songwriting and the role of arrangement and production,

Some sound so simple and familiar they border banal, but generally with repeated radio plays they sink into our consciousness. Are they good tunes under the glossy shine? Or is that apparent simplicity truly inspired?

What do you all think?
 
Neil

[Boydie]

I make no secret that I am a fan of modern pop

I actually think it is HARD to write a catchy pop tune that doesn't sound cheesy and cliche

The production IS important but there still needs to be hooks etc.

Following "rules" is important but a badly written pop song will sound like "pop by numbers"

Trying to be "original", "comformist", be "different but not too different" are all hard to achieve

I personally think it is much harder to pull off than writing a heartfelt ballad or folk song!

[S.T.C]

TBH Neil i listen to a lot of 'now' music and i think to myself it's mostly production

But ..what production! and of course in the mix are well crafted.lyrically sound songs................
...i mean ,how Taylor Swift and Ed Sheeran....get to be the global stars they are..i have no idea... and then all the Zedd /Calvin Harris type acts...with massive hit songs ,that are paper thin on substance most of the time............perhaps for the moment it's a world i've entered....but if you want to write professionally you need to do what the rest do?

I'm sure you know this...but i think it's good modern ,over produced music. 

[digger72]

I don't like much, if any, of modern pop, RnB, etc. I think it's contrived, music by numbers, pander to the masses, dross. To be honest, even rock music, which i prefer seems like this. Perhaps i just expect too much from music.
However, i think what they do is fantastic as a business. It seems that they have become honed to what the majority of folks like to hear and can churn this stuff out at will, to a standard people love. Marketing, production, image - seem to have overtaken the music. I'm not saying this was never the case before, but it seems prominent these days. You can almost predict what you will see in a music video before you've even watched it; semi naked men and/or women doing their thing. Does this bother me? No. But it does make me ask what are they selling?
As for lyrics - each to their own. Songs like "Happy" (Pharrell) or "All of Me" (John Legend) to me are the cliche cheese Boydie mentions, but they were massive songs.
Just shows i know nothing.

[tone]

I don't hate it, but I strongly dislike most of it Two talking points spring to mind.

Firstly, it's probably true to some extent that the pop charts have always been mainly rubbish. Of course, elements within them have been pure genius over the years, but even when the Beatles were at their peak, we still had to put up with the likes of Lily The Pink by Scaffold or Congratulations by Cliff…

Secondly, and probably more importantly, as the record industry has matured, it's got better at business. So it decides in advance what's going to sell, based on past record sales, and goes out in search of it. This has the unfortunate side effect of sidelining the artistic side of music making. A&R isn't interested in artist development or the likes of Kate Bush - it's just after a quick buck from a puppet it can throw away as soon as the public tires of them - which happens more frequently because they're all just cardboard cut-out pretty boys and girls 99% of the time.

But - and this is an important but - it seems to be what the public wants… I dunno - could you put Rufus Wainwright in the gym for 6 months, dress him up like Robbie Williams and spend £1m in marketing and be rewarded with a top 10 hit? Who knows, but it would make a very interesting experiment!

[S.T.C]

" it seems to be what the public wants"

Yes ,i think they've been educated to enjoy a certain type of sound...and are always ready to lap up more of the same....although there is some variety about still...but it's George 'bleeding' Ezra ,  ED Sheeran T/S etc ...artists like Ellie Goulding or Avicii sort of rise above it at times....makes you look back at the 80's like it was a golden period ..which it wasn't.?

[DevyE]

I'm sure most would agree that pop/chart music is all about formula, production and artist hype but it is aimed at the music buying public and much has been said about who they are. I do believe many are duped by good production alone, including those in the music business (listen to the anemic winners of some songwriting contests  , if it sounds professional many will just happily accept it's good without caring or looking under the bonnet.

I don't have a strong opinion on this but  to play devils advocate is it difficult to make a pop song for todays market if you have the right tools (toys)?

A midi controller/workstation with 16 pads or keyboard, maybe a dj tool too, some midi loops/wave files for various instruments/effects and a beat/backing track can be quickly made with little practice. Patch them together in a DAW, add a couple vocal hooks and you're done. And of course it will sound well produced because midi/wave files were used. Lots of this hardware is sold and many are making these tracks.

I've played around with some of these tools and although they are fun for a while I find it a rather soulless process.

[benjo]

 HEY

 i think its all about repetition most songs are hard to take in right away
 but played over and over and over again even if you're not that keen on the song
 you end up humming it or whistling it

 i wonder if some one put a song on the forum and we all agreed to listen to it
 three or four times a day for a whole seven days would it have the same effect on us
 would it become really catchy by itself would hooks plant themselves in our heads
 would we find our own hooks in the song / music

 watching the voice last night and they mentioned aga doo, by black lace
 Ricky Wilson sang it to himself and said, it makes no sense

 be interesting to try this as an experiment at least then we'll know
 it is all about being brainwashed by the radio / tv

   just a thought

[Dogmax]

I honestly don't see a problem with the songs i hear on radio and TV in fact i think some of them are very good regardless of what age or type of act is singing them, as for the lyrics they sing been whatever, the chorus or that hook line it the most important part of a song on first listen because remembering back to my youth days before the internet that part of the song was what got us back for another listen and i don't think that has change today, but the music has to be right, as for the verse once it get them to that chorus or hook line it doesn't really matter about the maturity of them but that's only one market of the music world, as i said here before there is an audience out there for all types of music and songs even the more mature one but i do think that's the way to go if someone want to write the next great big hit, interesting story here about the song "All About That Bass" 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_That_Bass

[diademgrove]

I don't listen to much music on the radio or on the television to be honest. I came across Taylor Swift because of someone on Justinguitar and thought she wrote very good country songs about what it was like to be a teenage girl. I didn't like all that I heard but some of it I really liked. I've listened to Katy Perry because of Jess. I don't like all of them but some of her songs are excellent.

I'm not keen on modern r'n'b having been brought up on Wilson Pickett, Motown, Otis Redding and the Rolling Stones.

There has always been a place on the charts for disposable pop music. Here's some gems from 10th October 1968:

Leapy Lee: Little Arrows
Vanity Fare: I Live for the Sun
Cliff Richard: Marianne
Des O'Connor: I Pretend
Amen Corner: High in the Corner

Number 4 was one of the greatest singles of all time.

At number 12 you have songwriters for hire plus Aretha

Song writing isn't just about hits today, do you want to be recognised in 30 years time as one of the greats?

How many of today's hits will be bought in 30 or 50 years time?

Remember Paul McCartney is still collecting royalties from Buddy Holly's songs.

[Neil C]

I agree, there's always been great and poor tunes in pop.
Production has probably stepped up in terms of importance.
I wonder what lennon and macartney would be doing if they were around now?
Its also interesting to think if you strip the production fluff away is there a good song underneath? I'm thinking Radio 1 live lounge is pretty popular..
 
Neil

[seriousfun]

I always feel a good litmus test is to play the song as a 1+1,  ie guitar and vox or guitar and piano. If it still sounds good then its a good song, if not it was all production.

[Jess]

I've listened to Katy Perry because of Jess. I don't like all of them but some of her songs are excellent.

And of course I assume you will be watching her set at the SuperBowl this year

[Boydie]

I think looking at "pop" in this way is like comparing a McDonalds meal with a Michelin star restaurant meal

All of the comparisons between "pop" and "good songs" are exactly the same

The beauty is that there is room for all and whilst I enjoy the odd "posh nosh" meal I will not be abandoning my good friends Maccy D or Mr Dominoes for a little while yet - not to mention Uncle Vindaloo!!!!!

[Sing4me88]

IMHO this all hinges on subjectivity versus objectivity and how they are applied to modern Pop music and its standards. Whether a song is 'good' is entirely subjective- it depends on taste, preference for artists, genre etc. However whether a song is deemed successful is objective- it makes a lot of money, it enters the charts, it has lots of exposure and is played all the time on TV and radio.Like Boydie I'm a massive fan of modern Pop and I think some of the songs in the charts in the last few years tick both the 'good' and 'successful' boxes- Call Me Maybe, Blurred Lines, Wake Me Up etc