[rimash]

hi guyz this is my first post here,i have diffrent ways to write a song,one of them is to write chorus first.

when i write the chorus first,i tend to write much better choruses usually,

but the problem is i get stuck for verses,and usually my verses in this method do not

exactly belong to the chorus.

do u guyz have any tips or tricks?

[Boydie]

I also usually start with the chorus

I mentioned this in another thread but I think it is worth stating again

Your chorus should be preceded by the imaginary (if not actually said in the last line immediately before the chorus) words: "so" or "because"

I find keeping this in mind ensures that the chorus has the necessary "pay off" when you answer these words

In a nutshell I don't think you can go too far wrong following the following rules format as a general guide (that can of course be tweaked)

Verse
Tell the story & lead to the chorus – contains plot, details, action, characters. Same melody for each verse.
4 or 8 lines long (8 – 16 bars).
If song has chorus title does not usually appear in verse.
Ideas and general information to be conveyed in first verse – clearly leading to title.
The lyric preceding the chorus should support the title.

Pre-Chorus
2 or 4 lines (referred to as: climb, lift, set-up, channel, or B section).
Different melody & rhythm – typically 4 bars long.
Propel listener (melodically & lyrically) into chorus.
Could keep the same lyric or introduce new lyric with same melody.

Chorus
Summation of concept.
Showcase the title and hammer it home – make sure title “pays off”.
4 or 8 lines long (8, 12 or 16 bars).
Same melody & lyrics each time.

Next verses
“Then what happened?” or “what else happened?” – add more information and lead back to title.

Bridge
Also referred to as “Middle 8” – although it is not always in the middle nor is it always 8 bars long! 
Adds a new angle / perspective / contrast.
Reveals an added element to the story – perhaps a surprise.
Departure/release from rest of song – different melody/rhythm - change timeframe or switch from specific detailed imagery to general or philosophical statements (or vice versa).
2 or 4 lines (4 or 8 bars long).
Could be instrumental – guitar solo! - you can never go wrong with sticking a guitar solo in 
Could be repeat of “pre-chorus” between 2 choruses.
Take song to next level.
Lead listener back to the title – perhaps from a new angle.
Introduce one or more chords not previously used and use notes higher or lower than rest of song.

As a general rule of thumb you should be looking to ensure the lyric makes the singer look good and that the lyric sounds "conversational"  - poems often don't make good song lyrics


Another good trick that has been discussed before is to write your FIRST verse and THEN make it your SECOND verse - this will then ensure that your new FIRST verse "sets up" your new SECOND verse, which can be a good way of ensuring your listeners "engage" with your song and any characters/situations you introduce

I hope this helps and welcome to the forum!

[rimash]

thank you very much it helped alot.

so another issue is,i usually write chorus on a riff or chord prog,and im not sure for verse and prechorus
should i put down some chords or just try to figure out something on that same riff as chorus.

[Boydie]

IMHO it is ALL about the melody

It doesn't matter if the chords are the same, just look for a contrast to your chorus

If your chorus has wide ranging notes using lots of held syllables then write a verse with short, stabby, syllables over just a few notes

Lots of writers apply these "rules" subconsciously but it can be useful to plan ahead

[rimash]

thanx alot.its very helpful

[EpiphoneEpiphany]

hey

I sometimes start with the verse and sometimes with the chorus it depends I think,
for one song I already had verses but it took me another one and a half years to get a good chorus for it, and that chorus was the chorus of a new song I was writing. I transposed that chorus into the key of the old song and it fit well

so I think it's a bit like a playing a puzzle game until you have the final version of the song it's just a question of changing and rearranging the lyrics/music material you have and seeing what fits together well

that doesn't mean one can't get stuck though and it really can feel awful


and as Boydie said the format/guide can be tweaked, for instance when I haven't really got anything to say for a pre-chorus I just do an instrumental build-up


hope that was helpful

EE

[rimash]

thank you EpiphoneEpiphany,yeah that happend for me too.i do agree its like a puzzle game

[shortwhat]

Like a year ago I had a way of doing this that sort of worked but also felt like less accomplishment. So it's not perfect; however I'll talk about it here in case you'd like to try it. Basically what I did was I spent a month or so just writing loads of choruses about different things that I could fit a song to, and then spent the next month doing the same but with verses and bridges. And after about 3 months I could literally just choose a chorus, spend about 10 minutes choosing between what verses I had that fit. It was actually quite funny because you could try and be going somewhere with a verse, add a certain chorus and the whole meaning would be changed completely! It's quite simple when you've got about 50 verses to choose from It's like building blocks

[hardtwistmusic]

I start with a line of lyric. 

At the start, I have no idea if it's chorus, verse, or bridge.  (it's not often the bridge, but that's just because I seldom think in terms of bridges.) 

I then add a complementary second line.  Still don't know where it's going. 

Third and fourth lines define the general direction I'm going in.  But I still have no clue as to structure. 

If the stanza I've written is compelling, something will suggest itself to let me continue.  If nothing suggests itself, I either set it aside (sometimes for years) or discard the least effective lines and start over.  Sometimes the "least effective lines" include the line I began with.

When I have TWO compelling stanzas, I begin to think in terms of whether it's a chorus or a verse.  I remain uncomitted either way, but I begin to think in those terms.

Interestingly enough, at this point, among the most important things I can do is to make sure my FORMAT is consistent with how the cadence of the stanzas needs to be... that the cadence is communicated by how I've decided to structure the length of each line.  Communicated to myself, AND communicated to someone else.  Someone else should be able to read my "poem/partial lyric" and tell how I would speak/sing it.   

With two compelling stanzas, the song "writes itself."  (Sometimes in a good way, sometimes not.) 

When "done," I'm about half done.  NOW.... I go through and look at sequence and structure. 

What is chorus, what is verse... is there something that should be a bridge?  If not... do I NEED a bridge?  But I'm still not locked in.  At this point, I still might just abandon ship and go back to the first line and start over. 

Looking at sequence, I try to see if there is a better sequence to tell the "story" from.  Is one of the verses a better place to start?  Is the chorus a bad place to start?  Should the chorus be a verse?  If so..... I have a lot of writing left to do. 

NOW... I'm actually almost done.  If the song makes sense (to someone else, not just to me -  I'm too close to it still to make that judgement call), then the lyric is "substantially complete." 

NOW... I'll go through and think in terms of labeling chorus, bridge, and verses. 

Then, I record it, and listen to it literally hundreds of times.  Changes and improvements WILL suggest themselves, and demand to be made.  I make them.

Now I'm "done" enough to ask for feedback and change what OTHER people hear wrong. 

It's my opinion that such terms mean nothing to the average listener, and they exist primarily to allow songwriters to more easily critique one another's work. 

Sounds complex..... but in reality, the longest I've EVER spent on a lyric is 8 hours, and the average is about 45 minutes to an hour and a half. 

[skogge]

Hi

I can never do that, start with the chorus I mean. I´ll just make the chorus the verse and force myself to write an even stronger chorus. Worse, I can´t even write a proper intro once the song is finished. Must do it from A-B-C-D-E. Weird and frustrating!!

[Bernd]

How or where you begin might simple have to do with the order you do things when developing a song.

When I write for myself I may have a line of text in my mind with the spark of a tune, or a guitar riff that is kind of automatically followed by matching lines. The part that is there first might eventually become the chorus of a song or a verse.

When I write to match other people's music I nearly always begin with the chorus (plus pre-chorus if required). That's the part that has to stick out - to hook people. It must match perfectly. Next, I usually present my partners my suggestion to find out if we will proceed from there. Only if they are happy I go about the tedious tasks of writing verses and maybe a bridge.

Bernd

[Paulski]

I like to start with what Ralph Murphy calls a "nugget". It is usually a "take-away" from an experience or conversation. For example, I wrote a song called "Fill Yer Boots" because I had heard that expression several times from diff people within a few days. From there, it is all about connecting that nugget to life, love or a story line. So it became: "If you think you're gonna find a bigger love than mine.. fill yer boots!" That was my chorus. Then connect it to verses that set it up. In this case it was a couple living on an apple farm. If everything connects, then I think you've built a song that works.
Paul

[dtrain1235]

I usually get my ideas from a conversation I have with someone. I use that as a hook and do the chorus first. Then finish it out with the verses and a bridge. It's like trying to fit the pieces of a puzzle.

[ArmstrongandStayte]

I start with the music - usually the Chorus. Whether it's a riff or bassline, doesn't matter. Get the music grooving (in my case, anyway), the melody and anchor/catchphrase line usually then come to me.

The verse lyrics usually are the last thing that come to me (or the middle 8!)

Good luck with your writing

Dan