[Paul]

Songwriters might like to tune in to BBC2 21:45 - 22:45 tonight (02/07/2011).  Guy chambers and Rufus Wainwright will be working together to write a new ballad.  This is episode 1/3 which, explores the process of songwriting.

Paul

[tone]

Paul, thank you SO much for sharing this. I won't miss this for anything

[Paul]

I've just checked out Rufus Wainnright's own website where there are more details about tonights show.  This is a brand new series which tonight, will focus on the ballad.  The program will last for one hour and also includes interviews with Sting, Neil Tennant, Dianne Warren.

Try not to miss the show as it should be very interesting!

[tone]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13967945

[tone]

What did you all think of this programme?

To be honest I felt sorry for Rufus. He was really making an effort to inject a bit of fun into the process and Chambers just came across as a po-faced old git. And just because Chambers has sold far more units than Rufus doesn't make him a better songwriter. In fact, Chambers should have been totally awe-struck to be working with RW; instead, he seemed slightly underwhelmed to the point of disdain.

Do I need to say I didn't like him? The idea of writing a song just to earn money/ notoriety is cynical to me. By all means have them as secondary motives, but for my money the song needs integrity first and foremost. Without that, it's just a catchy tune that dies a death in a few years. Like most of Robbie Williams' songs, actually.

[Paul]

I thoroughly enjoyed this show.  I really wanted to dive in and get involved with the writing process.  Did anyone else feel the same? It doesn't matter if you've sold millions of records or none, I think as writers we occasionally all want to change or add to what other artists have done (especially when the writing process is laid bare the way it was on Saturday night.)

I've got to say that I was impressed with Guy's musical ability.  Though I'm not sure if he is able to write a song including lyrics by himself to a high standard.  I also watched the show from the perspective of someone who hasn't heard a single Rufus Wainright recording or even seen a photograph of him before.  Is he brilliant? I don't really know but I'm aware of his reputation for producing quality work.  I'll have to check him out.  Can anyone recommend his best recordings?  I thought that Guy Chambers had a good idea of the direction that he  did and didn't want the song to follow, prior to the two writers getting together.  He was subtle about achieving his goals, yet also forceful, leaving no misunderstanding about his preferences.  He appeared to push his ideas, more than Rufus Wainright and musically steered the project in terms of instrumentation and chord arrangements. Perhaps Rufus was more forceful off camera.  I loved the opening line of the song and thought that Rufus came up with a top notch melody for this.  He certainly has a great voice and I'm looking forward to hearing the melody in it's entirety when the song is released. I was disappointed that both writers allowed the line 'Don't bore us, get to the chorus ' into a song that showed tremendous potential.  For me, that wasn't good enough.  If I was going to stick to my guns during a collaboration, I'd have stressed this strongly!  I've searched for the track on itunes and it's not available yet. I'm looking forward to hearing it and concentrating on the lyrics.  I'm thinking about buying 'The Isis Project' a collaboration between Guy Chambers and a female french lyricist that sounds quite stunning.

It was a very enjoyable show and I'm looking forward to the next one at the weekend.  If anyone else would like to share their thoughts about this show, like tone, I look forward to reading them.

Thanks

Paul

[tone]

I strongly agree with you about the chorus lyric! There's no way I would have allowed that into one of my songs!

If you're looking to hear the song all the way through, there's a couple of live performances on youtube. And as for the best introduction to Rufus' work, I'd recommend 'Want One.' All of his albums are brilliant, but that one has something for everyone. Tracks to look out for (in my opinion) are 'I dont know what it is', 'vibrate' and 'dinner at eight'. He's definitely one of my top 3 songwriters

[hofnerite]

What did you all think of this programme?

To be honest I felt sorry for Rufus. He was really making an effort to inject a bit of fun into the process and Chambers just came across as a po-faced old git. And just because Chambers has sold far more units than Rufus doesn't make him a better songwriter. In fact, Chambers should have been totally awe-struck to be working with RW; instead, he seemed slightly underwhelmed to the point of disdain.

Do I need to say I didn't like him? The idea of writing a song just to earn money/ notoriety is cynical to me. By all means have them as secondary motives, but for my money the song needs integrity first and foremost. Without that, it's just a catchy tune that dies a death in a few years. Like most of Robbie Williams' songs, actually.

See, I saw this completely differently. Rufus was there to co-write a single that was different from his other stuff, namely a pop song fit for mainstream radio. Guy knows how to do that as he has proven with Robbie's stuff. In this scenario, IMHO Guy was there to lay the foundations of the song, with Rufus providing the melody/lyrics. Rufus practically said it himself that on his own he's only come up with operatic type stuff but can't do simple pop songs. guy is one of the best in the world at that genre, like him or not. His style in writing is conciseness and that came across, no funny business, no spending weeks researching stuff, just getting on with it.

I don't think there's anything cynical about writing for money. if no-one wrote for money then there wouldn't be famous musicians, therefore no music industry! The Robbie Williams songs you speak of may have died a death in your eyes but they still get a hell of a lot of radio play. Not a bad legacy, especially those royalty cheques coming through his door each week!!

I see songwriting like any other craft. Rufus is like a michelin starred chef, producing a few but perfectly formed pieces for a niche market. Guy is more like McDonalds, feeding the masses with simple cheap grub. The chef is in it for the love of food, McDs are in it to make cash. Now, I like my fillet steak but I also like a burger from time to time and personally if I could be either, I'd rather be CEO of McDs than a chef in a restaurant!

[tone]

Although you make really valid points, Hofnerite, I don't entirely agree with you.

If no-one wrote songs simply to make money, there would still be a music industry. It just wouldn't be the one we recognise today. People want to hear quality music, and I think history backs me up when I say it's the true artists that have sold the most units, not the in-it-for-the-money crowd. As music has become more manufactured and less risk-taking, record sales have dropped year on year, not just as a result of digital media.

I think any professional musician should make a decent living, but I also think that being paid as much as the big players do is bad for music in general. Not only does it attract the kind of person who wants fame and notoriety more than they want to make music, but it often tends to remove the artists somewhat from the experiences that inform their writing.

As for Rufus not being pop - I think he's pure pop. If you strip the songs back to just melody and chords, I'd say 80% are simple pop songs. Yes, he does tend to cram them full of campness and operatic drama, but that's what works for him.

I didn't have a problem with Guy Chambers taking the lead so much as his apparent disdain for Rufus at times. To use your analogy it was a little like watching a Maccy-D's chef telling a Michelin Star chef how to make a popular dish.

[Ramshackles]

Got to agree with tone. To me the very way chambers approached writing the song - coming up with a title first and then some 5 second riffs was very commercial and bland to me. Loved Rufus' face when he said it should be called World War 3 in the clip. Such a crap title!
Agree with your comments about the music industry, although the digital/mp3 revolution is making some things better (aswell as other things worse) - 1 being that I think there is a tendency now for only the 'true' artists to have longer lasting careers, with the rest being the current years fad or flash in the pan.

[hofnerite]

Although you make really valid points, Hofnerite, I don't entirely agree with you.

If no-one wrote songs simply to make money, there would still be a music industry. It just wouldn't be the one we recognise today. People want to hear quality music, and I think history backs me up when I say it's the true artists that have sold the most units, not the in-it-for-the-money crowd. As music has become more manufactured and less risk-taking, record sales have dropped year on year, not just as a result of digital media.

I think any professional musician should make a decent living, but I also think that being paid as much as the big players do is bad for music in general. Not only does it attract the kind of person who wants fame and notoriety more than they want to make music, but it often tends to remove the artists somewhat from the experiences that inform their writing.

As for Rufus not being pop - I think he's pure pop. If you strip the songs back to just melody and chords, I'd say 80% are simple pop songs. Yes, he does tend to cram them full of campness and operatic drama, but that's what works for him.

I didn't have a problem with Guy Chambers taking the lead so much as his apparent disdain for Rufus at times. To use your analogy it was a little like watching a Maccy-D's chef telling a Michelin Star chef how to make a popular dish.

That's how Guy is though. I have met him once and "known" him for a while through friends. Like I say, he's no-nonsense and is in the business to give artists success in terms of money and fame and airplay. If Rufus didn't want to make a commercially viable pop song then he wouldn't have been there, he wanted to break into the mainstream and try something new. Perhaps he could have done this on his own, perhaps he couldn't.

I don't know why there is this apparant divide here between "real songwriters" and "commercial writers". To me it sounds a bit snobby. Did Macca write 'Love Me Do' for himself because he believed it to be a well crafted gem which conveyed his inner most thoughts? No, he wrote it because he knew it would be popular and would sell. Yes, as you say "Proper" songwriters have done well in terms of sales but even the biggest (Lennon Macca, Elton, Elvis!!, Jackson etc) have all written both commercial and meaningful music. They go hand in hand. Lets face it, if your favourite songwriters weren't at all looking at the commercial side of songwriting then you'd never have heard of them. No-one wakes up one day and finds themselves famous by accident.

[tone]

That's how Guy is though. I have met him once and "known" him for a while through friends. Like I say, he's no-nonsense and is in the business to give artists success in terms of money and fame and airplay. If Rufus didn't want to make a commercially viable pop song then he wouldn't have been there, he wanted to break into the mainstream and try something new. Perhaps he could have done this on his own, perhaps he couldn't.

I don't know why there is this apparant divide here between "real songwriters" and "commercial writers". To me it sounds a bit snobby. Did Macca write 'Love Me Do' for himself because he believed it to be a well crafted gem which conveyed his inner most thoughts? No, he wrote it because he knew it would be popular and would sell. Yes, as you say "Proper" songwriters have done well in terms of sales but even the biggest (Lennon Macca, Elton, Elvis!!, Jackson etc) have all written both commercial and meaningful music. They go hand in hand. Lets face it, if your favourite songwriters weren't at all looking at the commercial side of songwriting then you'd never have heard of them. No-one wakes up one day and finds themselves famous by accident.

Again, valid points, and I take them to some extent.

I suppose I'm trying to say there's a line in there somewhere. I agree nobody finds themselves famous by accident. But I do believe some people just hit the zeitgeist by doing what comes naturally. For example, I don't think there's anything contrived about Kate Bush, and I don't think she wrote Wuthering Heights to become famous or rich.

Making a distinction between 'real' and 'commercial' writers to me is about identifying that line at which an honest song becomes a vehicle for personal gain. I can't claim to dislike every song that was written for the these reasons, but I know I definitely prefer songs that have integrity.

I also think you haven't considered that the craft of songwriting in itself is an exercise in creating something accessible, and to an extent immediate. The song is a popular format, so it's not surprising that people become well known if they do it well. But that's the stamp of a brilliant songwriter. The song is both honest and accessible, original and familiar. Which is what makes RW stand out for me, and GC look a bit crap in comparison.