[Sing4me88]

Hi guys. Looking for some advice re a new approach I'm taking to trying to slowly begin turning lyrics into 'songs' worth pitching. Not sure it is viable, adviseable or even possible but here goes....

I want to get my lyrical and musical ideas across but struggle due to not being a musician or knowing music theory.I'm not precious with lyrics by any stretch of the imagination and I love the unexpected yet truly rewarding product of offering lyrics to someone to turn into a song but lately I've a few ideas that seem to work really well with what is in my head but probably wouldn't seem much good without this being passed on to someone who is a musician or composer or producer. Lyrics are hard to connect with when they are only seen as words on a page, if however they are read in conjunction with an envisaged melody they have a whole new worth. I think this is particularly important as I try to use repetition and hook so quite often my lyrics look like cliches and buzz words.

No matter how often I try to grapple with music theory I fail miserably- I guess I don't have the time nor even the inclination to learn from scratch. I've tried using EZ keys to lay chords which is great but I struggle to write a melody on chords.

My only aim is to write a very, very rough vocal line using a keyboard - bear in mind I'm not a musician so I'm basically playing a bunch of notes closest to what is in my head without regard for scale, note length etc - so that I can express my ideas for my lyrics to those I collab with.


I used to try recording a voice clip of my horrendous attempts at singing the melody I had in my head. However due to my lack of tone, timing, pitch and general vocal talent this often failed to convey what I had in my mind. In my head the song is being belted out by Sam Smith or Ella Henderson but in the voice clips it is being massacred by me!

I guess I wanna know if it is viable songwriting method to 'write' a very rough melody by matching what is in my head with my very basic keyboard 'playing'- basically just pressing the keys that seem to fit the vocal melody in my head? Would a collabing partner be able to take this very rough attempt at the melody and connect with the lyrics, then proceed to tidy up the melody and lay chords to make it more of a 'song' along the lines that I originally had in mind when penning the lyrics?

Thanks

[Jess]

I know no music theory because I think it is the boringest thing to ever grace the face of the earth and I would rather spend my time eating cake, but I still write a decent melody. There are loads of really common chord progressions used especially in pop so if you pick 4 chords that google says sound good together and then play them for 1 2 3 4 change chord 1 2 3 4 etc and then kind of lalala a melody and then fit your lyrics to that...the start of a song just COMES OUT it is magical.

That is literally the worst advice ever given by anyone ever, but I honestly think the key (excuse the pun) to great music is not to overthink it.

[tone]

Totally disagree with you, Jess

Just because you don't know any of the fancy words to describe music theory doesn't mean you don't know any music theory. The fact that you can throw a chord sequence together and write a melody to it is proof of this.

The idea that finding your way in spite of a lack of musical knowledge is somehow more magical is simply a myth in my opinion. The music theory deniers who write great songs tend to have a great grasp of many of the basic principles of music theory. They just picked them up without any formal training and without the context of the posh words.

So, Sing4me88, my answer to you is: yes, technically. But there really is no replacement for learning to play an instrument, even to a basic level. You can write really great songs just playing simple chords on the piano or guitar.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that a lyric & melody on its own isn't quite a song yet. Without the harmony (chord sequence) that underpins your song, there's an important element missing. Choice of chords/ harmony can make a massive difference to the emotional flavour of a song, and could potentially make or break a good lyric and melody.

Maybe not the answer you're looking for, but I hope it helps.

For the record, music theory is one of the most interesting things I can think of!

[digger72]

I'm like Jess. Theory bores the pants off me. I just mumble any old sounds over what i've recorded then when i'm happy with the noises i start trying to turn them to words. If it's easier for you to change the noises firstly to piano notes then go for it. After a while i just find things seem to fit. Whether it's any good or not is a different matter, and for others to decide for themselves. I doubt anyone knowingly writes something they think isn't very good. People like Simon Cowell try to market stuff they know is rubbish, but then they are mainly interested in money.
Can't comment on Sam Smith or Ella Henderson as I've no idea who they are.

Cheers,

Digger

[Sing4me88]

Hi guys. Great feedback. I can throw a few chords together but I often get troubled trying to fit the melody in my head over them.

Tone- bang on re the melody not being the song. The problem I had is that I'd go to someone I'd collab with 'here's some lyrics I was thinking it could be like X,Y or Z'. However what I'm hoping is that now I can go 'here's some lyrics. I was thinking the song could be like X,Y or Z and here is a melody I had in mind. Do you think you could work with this to get chords and a rhythm to make it like X, Y or Z'.

Again I'm not sure how viable it is but it's gotta beat my poor singing! Plus I'm also thinking I might be able to expand by saying 'here's the melodic and lyrical hook- lets etc brass or synth to really push this' or even something like 'after this part of the melody bring in a double clap' etc. Also hoping I'll be able to match lyrical hooks up to show 'earworms' to show how a crappy repetitive lyric ACTUALLY does work!

Hardly production or songwriting of the highest caliber but I'm hoping it allows a more creative and productive process that spawns some kick ass commercially viable thrashy nonsense Pop songs!

[tone]

Sing4me88: reading your reply made me think of a clip I heard recently of a Michael Jackson demo. He couldn't play an instrument, so was in a similar position. But his demo was an incredible representation of the song, including hand percussion, vocal harmonies and other melodic hooks.

Check it out - it's really cool!

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/04/michael-jackson-beat-it-demo/

[AlexMo]

I agree with Tone. I've studied music theory and I found it to be incredibly useful. Often now when I write I write in weird tunings so that I don't know what notes and chords I'm playing, because I find that it helps me to be creative. But having said that I still know by ear what chord I'm playing in relation to whatever key it is that I'm in (even if I don't know they key), and I still know which notes of the scale I'm singing and how they relate to particular chords.

To come up with a melody I don't really think you need knowledge of music theory. If you're a musical kind of person you can probably make up a melody consisting of only notes that work without needing to know why they work.

Honestly I'm kind of surprised by the number of people saying they found music theory boring... I don't think there's anything more empowering as a songwriter than the ability to understand music.

[Sing4me88]

Hi guys.Thanks for some great advice and feedback.

I sure see the merit in what Alex and Tone say about music theory- I know for sure it would probably help my 'songwriting' immeasurably as well as give me a better insight into scan, rhythm, the production end of things. I won't lie though I'm still 99.9999% likely to continue without delving into theory. I just find it tedious and boring and have always had a passion for the real life application rather than theory- not just in music but in other aspects of life in general! Kinda closer to what Jess says about just picking up an instrument and throwing notes or chords together without knowing how or why it works

l have been playing around with the keyboard a little more and trying to construct melodies. I will probably never be able to write a complete song from start to finish. Like lyric writing when it comes to putting together  rough, basic vocal melody I've always found my groove and creative juices flow when it comes to the hook in the chorus or pre. I struggle on both fronts when it comes to the verse so I guess I'll always need someone to co-write with (not to mention produce!). Without downgrading the importance of verse I am hoping however that being able to show in more creative terms what I feel the hook or chorus is like in my mind might lead to a more commercially orientated song that is attuned to what the inspiration in my head was like! Granted others will always have to tidy any semblance of a top line vocal melody up, lay chords and produce it etc but I'm hoping this can start a gradual evolution from lyricist to topliner/songwriter.

This brings me on to  second point I'd love to gain feedback on. I've finally gotten a midi lead and hooked up a very cheap older Casio midi keyboard (acquired for 20 quid at a car boot sale!) to Mixcraft and I'm starting trying to write vocal lines via messing about with different sounds, synths, effects etc. Again I am never liable to be a producer of any worth but I think it may help me express my ideas more creatively or artistically to fellow co-writers and collabs. At the minute I have Mixcraft in demo mode which is great except I can't mix any creative attempts down to MP3 or midi to send on to others. The full version of Mixcraft is reasonably enough priced at £40-50. Before I get this are there any other basic free or similarly priced software that posters would recommend. I guess my needs are fairly limited at the minute but they may expand if my capabilities grow and I get to grips with production a little more. I doubt I'll ever need (or want) the most exclusive or expensive packages but are there any other Mixcraft like packages (in terms of both reasonable cost and of catering for a range of users from complete beginners through to more advanced songwriters) that others recommend other than Mixcraft?

Thanks

[seriousfun]

Plus 1 on the beat it demo.

What a great find Tone - simply awesome. A lesson for us all in there.