[tone]

Hello beautiful songwriters

I've noticed recently a few people venting on other members' review threads. While I understand why you feel frustrated when someone posts a lot of reviews without taking part in the forum, I don't think having a rant helps anyone. In fact, it lowers the tone of the forum.

Instead, why not just find a thread that you want to bring some constructive energy to, and post there. Those who post without contributing will see their threads fall off the forum, and they'll figure it out by themselves.

One of the best things about this forum is its atmosphere, and for a long time our members used to say that what made it different was the lack of sniping, bitching and hissy fits.

If you're pissed off, write a song! If someone doesn't want to take part in the forum, don't take part in their threads. The natural flow of the forum will weed out those who don't belong or don't give enough back.

Those who've been around for a while know that I don't believe in censorship. However, I have been tempted to edit a few posts recently.

Remember, this is your forum. It's only as nice a place to be as you make it.

Peace out

[James Nighthawk]

Hey tone

I am guilty of the above for the first time recently. I apologised in the thread post itself, and I apologise once more for going to "the dark side" for the first time here. In my defensive, it was my concern over misinformation provided in the tech forums that tipped me over the edge and the damage it could do. Furthermore I was polite (I hope!) throughout my rant as much as possible.

I have always ignored the selfish posters. This is the done thing and it peacefully weeds them out everytime. 

I think the fact that at times people (very occasionally) snap on here is a testament to how great this forum is. The regulars feel an affinity to the forum because is it so refreshing.

Internet forums can very easily turn into places of vile negativity. One must note, that even when people do rant/accuse on these threads, 99% of the time they do so politely, gentlemanly infact (or ladylike, of course! ). This in itself is fantastic and again a sign of the decency of the people on here. Infact, I have only EVER seen vulgar language on here for comedic effect...Bravo all!

Lastly, that most well-known of wise quotations comes to mind:

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. "
Edmund Burke

"Evil" is of course many, many leagues ahead of a selfish forumite, but the logic works regardless. On occasion, some people need a polite reminder and leaving this to the forum members to do so in a natural way is best in almost all cases, and as such your abstaining from censorship is to be commended Tone. But if no one ever speaks out, there is the a risk that community spirit on here may falter over time.

Just my two cents on the subject

Peace out and Much Love! 

[Kafla]

Got to agree 100% with tone here.

I haven't always got time to spend reviewing as many songs as others but I would still like to contribute what I can and of course post my own songs.

I seem to chat with guys from the forum more by email these days and I know of a few members who won't be back.

I have always had the opinion that if someone doesn't contribute then you should just ignore them. Having been here quite a while you get a majority who join for a while and then get fed up but it's that slowly growing minority that make this forum a beautiful place. If we jump on everyone who initially posts more than they review then we are in danger of losing those 1 or 2 nuggets that really add to this beautiful place.

We also need to accept that some good guys will drop in and out of the forum and we should also embrace these members - everyone has different time constraints.

Anyway I am off to have a wee glas of wine and a play with logic - have a great Friday night

[tina m]

the more you put into something... the more you care for it ...the more you want to look after it
the backbone of the forum are the regulars who selflessly review everyones songs who comes here  & hav invested a lot in this forum & do not like it when others trample all over it & dont read the rules & dont a f**k about anybody else but themselves & there own songs
it makes me mad but i try to be nice & all i have done is point out to people the best way to behave here

its been said this week that theres an old guard here who think they own the place... well someone has to look after things otherwise the regulars will leave & they are worth 100 of the ones who dont care at all & abuse the place
i dont see a moderator here doing anything so its left to regulars to put people right

i suppose tones post is about songsmith losing his cool today.....maybe he went a bit to far but i know how he feels & i simpathise with him needing to let off steam....yuo dont want to lose people like him he is always encourageing & reviews selflessly ... without people like him the forum would grind to a halt
i have thought about leaving aswell lately
i pointed out to stickboy & glennannie the way the forum works & got told off
& now i see fisherman has posted 3 songs in so many days... well i dont dare say anything now ...nobody bothers to read the rules thats obvious
other forums have a bunch of iron fist moderators this one doesnt seem to have anything

[S.T.C]

the more you put into something... the more you care for it ...the more you want to look after it
the backbone of the forum are the regulars who selflessly review everyones songs who comes here  & hav invested a lot in this forum & do not like it when others trample all over it & dont read the rules & dont a f**k about anybody else but themselves & there own songs
it makes me mad but i try to be nice & all i have done is point out to people the best way to behave here

its been said this week that theres an old guard here who think they own the place... well someone has to look after things otherwise the regulars will leave & they are worth 100 of the ones who dont care at all & abuse the place
i dont see a moderator here doing anything so its left to regulars to put people right

i suppose tones post is about songsmith losing his cool today.....maybe he went a bit to far but i know how he feels & i simpathise with him needing to let off steam....yuo dont want to lose people like him he is always encourageing & reviews selflessly ... without people like him the forum would grind to a halt
i have thought about leaving aswell lately
i pointed out to stickboy & glennannie the way the forum works & got told off
& now i see fisherman has posted 3 songs in so many days... well i dont dare say anything now ...nobody bothers to read the rules thats obvious
other forums have a bunch of iron fist moderators this one doesnt seem to have anything

You could leave but theres no other perfect sites out there, that i`ve found...Tones thoughts today, amount to survival of the fittest ..if your songs are good enough ,they will stick around a while.

Yes i noticed a third song by the fisherman...normally is doesn`t affect me as i don`t post music,but i  would like to see Flossies song stay up there a bit...

3 songs a month would be a good rule,done on a honour system...and if you want to add more,stick them on an existing song post.
or store them on songcloud..i do listen to songs other than the one posted.

Other than that..it`s only going to lead to frustration and abusiveness..which i`m sure is not the intention of a song making site.

[tone]

the more you put into something... the more you care for it ...the more you want to look after it
the backbone of the forum are the regulars who selflessly review everyones songs who comes here  & hav invested a lot in this forum & do not like it when others trample all over it & dont read the rules & dont a f**k about anybody else but themselves & there own songs
it makes me mad but i try to be nice & all i have done is point out to people the best way to behave here

its been said this week that theres an old guard here who think they own the place... well someone has to look after things otherwise the regulars will leave & they are worth 100 of the ones who dont care at all & abuse the place
i dont see a moderator here doing anything so its left to regulars to put people right

i suppose tones post is about songsmith losing his cool today.....maybe he went a bit to far but i know how he feels & i simpathise with him needing to let off steam....yuo dont want to lose people like him he is always encourageing & reviews selflessly ... without people like him the forum would grind to a halt
i have thought about leaving aswell lately
i pointed out to stickboy & glennannie the way the forum works & got told off
& now i see fisherman has posted 3 songs in so many days... well i dont dare say anything now ...nobody bothers to read the rules thats obvious
other forums have a bunch of iron fist moderators this one doesnt seem to have anything

I value you as a great forum member Tina, and I'd be sad to see you go, but I don't agree with you 100% on this.

There's a reason you don't have iron fist moderators on this forum (or any mods) and it's because the forum has so far been a self-policing project. Sure, people lose their cool from time to time, and that's to be understood. But I don't believe that the conversation should be directed from the top down. That's why I'm the only moderator. Basically, I take care of spam, and the members take care of one another.

You seem to think that some members need to be 'set right' - I don't feel the same. I know you care about the forum, and I love that you do, but - I've put more into this forum than anyone. I believe that the forum naturally weeds out the undeserving if people concentrate on posting in threads that interest them or deserve their attention as I said in my original post.

This thread isn't a direct response to songsthatcry's post today although of course I noticed it. But I've noticed a few others like it over the past couple of weeks.

This is a community. And it's an open forum. There will always be those who try to benefit from it without giving back just as there will always be those who value the sense of community we propagate and believe in. And there will always be people trying to spam (although I think I've made some serious headway in this area recently.)

Like I said, this is your forum. Without you guys it's just me here talking to myself, and I don't need a forum to do that. What kind of forum do you want to be part of?

Thanks for all your replies so far

[mihkay]

Just check this out. I think it covers this subject better than anything I can say. 

http://xkcd.com/386/

Just be wonderful to one another. 

[tina m]

but the forum doesnt police itself tone....ok the regulers see whos deserving & can ignore those who are abusing it but theres a huge number of people who just  log in every so often & dont know whos deserving & give the timewasters the attention they crave
also to say if your song is strong enuff it will stick around isnt the way it works ...once youve gone of of the first page its just total chance that people will find you & bring your song back

once youve had kids & got a house & paid of the mortgage its hard to be a rebel  

[Dutchbeat]

Hello, 
i am not going to read all of this now...
but Tinam, dont go!
please

help us keep the forum as it is

[Boydie]

This is a really interesting discussion

First of all excellent post Tone, it was just the approach that was needed to diffuse the tension that has been building up a bit

I can understand both sides of the discussion in this thread and I must say I agree with both views! 

I get where Tone is coming from about the "wrong uns" being weeded out naturally over time and I applaud Tone for not running his own forum with an iron fist

However, I do think an element of policing would help weed people out quicker and prevent longer standing members getting p!$$ed off

E.g. locking threads until people review others etc.

It is always tricky to police without clear Rules (eg no more than 3 songs posted a month, for every song posted you must give at least 3 reviews etc)

Tone obviously doesn't want to go down this road - and the forum would be a very different place if it did

The long termers have said they have seen this before and it passes so I bow down to their experience and look forward to reviewing a bunch of songs about timewasters, people that take but don't give back etc etc. - there is plenty of material to use in all this 

Perhaps that could be the next competition 

[flossie]

Hey everybody,

Hope you don't mind me putting my oar in about this!  I have been using this forum for a while now and feel really at home here.

I am not a rules kind of girl really! Most people I find in life try and do the right thing and are considerate to one another.  I do think people also deserve the benefit of the doubt and the chance to get the hang of how the forum works.  I remember I didn't read the forum rules, but most people know how to conduct themselves here anyway!

I also see tinam's point of view, who is a prolific reviewer, without people like her and others I could mention on this site it would be a very different experience here. 

I would hate for you to leave tinam you are an important member here so you're not allowed okay?!

I just still stick to what I've said before, people who can't be arsed to review/listen to others work but expect feedback in return will soon discover that this is frowned on here

Receiving no reviews normally get the message across
x

[Schavuitje]

Heavy 

Again I can see both angles on this. I'm definately guilty of letting selfish people know what I think.
At the same time I know that simply not reviewing people I percieve to be abusing the place and others doing likewise
quickly gets the message across and quickly gets the song sliding down the page.
The problem at the moment in my opinion is that we have had a very big influx of members lately. Some are quickly becoming
valued members themselves. Others just as valued spend less time. And there is a lot of them. And they don't care. They turn up
and see some songs and don't give a thought to whether it is someone who deserves to be reviewed or not, because they wouldn't know... They don't
spend enough time in the forums to know.
Personally I think it speeds up the process of someone "getting it" if they are abusing the place to give them a gentle nudge in the right direction. 
If people can't be bothered to work out what kind of place they are in and how it works before they start amazing us with their special music then
someone needs to say something. You would if it was your house.
That something need not be agressive though. Just a gentle imparting of the way we work. Without sarcasm or shortness of words.
Only if they continue to ignore all pleasantly imparted advice and be rudely selfish should the abuse start. And in my opinion, when someone is THAT selfish
and ignorant and nonempathic. They deserve some abuse.

[The Corsair]

I think the reason these more aggressive posts have cropped up recently has been because of the sheer number of member's we've had recently that have posted nothing but their own songs. We've had people constantly joining, posting and not reviewing so it's not like this is an overly new thing to us, it's just that our patience has worn thin.

I think, perhaps, we should find a way to make it that members can't post until they've read the rules (because they do, as I remember, clearly state that you should review others' work or you'll stop getting reviews).

[Kafla]

I love you all honest and if it came down to it I would stand shoulder to shoulder with Tinam, Schavu , James etc

But can we all give newbies the benefit of the doubt , let's be courteous as well - aggression rarely achieves anything - if a new member posts several songs without adding to the forum I am sure we can just refrain from reviewing their song until we feel that they are worthy of a review

And above all if the music is good lets just abandon all rules and succumb to the talent - life is too short and I would rather waste a few minutes listening to a cracking tune  

[Ramshackles]

^^ +1 for this

I dont think 'policing' is a good way to go. Gearslutz is an example of a heavily policed recording/music forum and it is a godawful place to post and not at all welcoming to new members.

I dont think ranting at newbies is a good way to go (unless a spam bot gets through and you want to let off steam )
I just dont review things until I know the member a bit more...although less time on the forum means I either dont realise who are regular members anymore or post on these people that seem to be annoying everyone .
But so a few people get some reviews and dont reciprocate, what does it matter? This forum is just a bit of fun...no-ones careers are at stake, no-one here is a pro, and if people are worried because they harbour ambitions of 'making it', I dont think posting on a forum is going to make much difference in that respect anyway...

On such a forum there will always be people who just want to use it as another outlet to spread their music around. I daresay they probably wouldnt even bother to read any rants you throw at them