The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Lyrics => Topic started by: Arkwright on March 29, 2015, 04:11:12 PM
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Hi gang...
It's been a while as I've been trying to finish up a couple of other literary projects. Feeling somewhat bereft after completing said projects, I thought I'd return to the fold for a while to keep my mind active and try and pen some new lyrics.
Not sure about the title for this one, so all suggestions gratefully accepted. The lyrics are a little dark and they certainly don't reflect my own state of mind, quite the opposite in fact, but they just sort of popped into my head, so I thought I'd get them down on paper so to speak. As usual, they're just a first draft, ready to be rewritten, so feel free to jump in and give me your thoughts and suggestions.
When...
VERSE 1
When silence becomes
The only sound I hear
When every thought I have
Leaves me filled with fear
When the darkness falls
And the light fails to rise
When the world looks bleak
Through sightless eyes
CHORUS
I walk a fine line
Between love and hate
While destiny fights
To enrich my fate
With a tainted heart
I bid the world farewell
Checkin’ in once again
To life’s "Heartbreak Hotel'
VERSE 2
When all I have left
Is a heart prone to weep
When all I desire
Is dark endless sleep
When life passes by
And I miss the last train
When the tears that I shed
Are obscured by the rain
MIDDLE 8
I see the bottle on the dresser
I see the answer in the mirror
I hear the slow ticking of time
I hear the laughter that isn't mine
I feel the faith slipping away
I feel the need for a brighter day
I long for strength to help me cope
I long for someone to give me hope
VERSE 3
When I look in the mirror
And tell myself lies
When the smile turns to frown
And the laughter dies
When I reach for the bottle
And the well has run dry
When the pain is so real
And I can no longer cry
CHORUS
I walk a fine line
Between love and hate
While destiny fights
To enrich my fate
With a tainted heart
I bid the world farewell
Checkin’ out for the last
From life's "Heartbreak Hotel'
OUTRO
When a new day dawns
And my sorrows they cease
When the pain is no more
I can embrace my peace
When the pain is no more
I can embrace my peace
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Hey glad to have you back.
Good title/concept and really enjoyed the read. Lots of good lines in there eg "When the tears that you shed Are obscured by the rain"
Wouldn't change anything.
:)
Neil
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Beautiful use of words to convey emotion. This is an intelligent, effective poem.
My only nit is that it seems to be about a protagonist who has decided suicide is his/her best option. There is no "resolution" in which that idea is dispelled and/or opposed. Thus, it could be interpreted as a song supporting suicide as a legitimate option.
I'm biased against art that (even ambiguously) do so. I'd have loved this lyric/poem if it did not leave that ambiguous.
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Hey glad to have you back.
Good title/concept and really enjoyed the read. Lots of good lines in there eg "When the tears that you shed Are obscured by the rain"
Wouldn't change anything.
:)
Neil
Thanks Neil... Always appreciate your feedback.
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Beautiful use of words to convey emotion. This is an intelligent, effective poem.
My only nit is that it seems to be about a protagonist who has decided suicide is his/her best option. There is no "resolution" in which that idea is dispelled and/or opposed. Thus, it could be interpreted as a song supporting suicide as a legitimate option.
I'm biased against art that (even ambiguously) do so. I'd have loved this lyric/poem if it did not leave that ambiguous.
Thanks for your observations. I certainly didn't set out to upset or alienate anyone with the lyrics, so I apologise reservedly of that's the case.
In my defence, I believe there's a subtle but important difference between promoting/encouraging suicide and writing about what for many people is a sad reality.
I would hope my lyrics fit into the latter, but fully appreciate your interpretation.
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Hi,
I thought this was a nice write. The sombre nature of the lyrics could be neutralised by the music I suppose.
The chorus is strong. If I was going to change anything it would maybe be the heartbreak motel line. Has echoes of Elvis and his hotel of a similar variety.
Nice one,
Phil.
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Hi,
I thought this was a nice write. The sombre nature of the lyrics could be neutralised by the music I suppose.
The chorus is strong. If I was going to change anything it would maybe be the heartbreak motel line. Has echoes of Elvis and his hotel of a similar variety.
Nice one,
Phil.
Thanks Phil and a good point made about the motel line. I guess I could make it Heartbreak Hotel in inverted commas as a direct tribute to the Elvis song or just look for something other than the word heartbreak.
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I feel you've written two very good songs that don't necessarily meet.
The verses seem to be directed at someone other then the singer. The person feeling the pain isn't the singer, similar to Bridge Over Troubled Water. And yet the chorus is the singer expressing his/her pain. For me the song would work if the verses were written in the first person.
However, because of the hint of suicide it wouldn't work for me if the chorus was written in the third person. I'm not sure changing the chorus would work either. If you applauded the person's misery you'd come across as unfeeling and if you offered to help you'd have re-written Bridge Over Troubled Waters.
On balance I would go with changing the verses into the first person. I agree with Hardtwistmusic. The thought of suicide makes the lyrics difficult to empathise with.
If you disagree please feel free to ignore my suggestions.
Keith
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I agree with Peejay
even though the song is quite sombre putting upbeat music can make a difference
A few songs of mine are quite sad and for good reason but I lift the game by making the music slightly upbeat
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I feel you've written two very good songs that don't necessarily meet.
The verses seem to be directed at someone other then the singer. The person feeling the pain isn't the singer, similar to Bridge Over Troubled Water. And yet the chorus is the singer expressing his/her pain. For me the song would work if the verses were written in the first person.
On balance I would go with changing the verses into the first person. I agree with Hardtwistmusic. The thought of suicide makes the lyrics difficult to empathise with.
If you disagree please feel free to ignore my suggestions.
Keith
Hi Keith... I agree entirely with your observations. I've changed the verses to first person for the time being, though I think it adds a bit of 'hardness' to the lines and they were much softer in the third person (I know what I mean even if no one else does ;D) I'll see if anyone else has a view over the next couple of days and then I might reverse them and put the chorus in third person to see how that goes down.
I stand by my previous comments about the subject matter and it's intention but understand fully why it may polarise people, at least it makes for interesting debate about what's acceptable and what isn't I guess.
Many thanks for your contribution...
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Thanks for your comments PJ and Lillypilly...
In my head, the natural feel for the music is a slow bluesy type affair, but the idea of making it upbeat is an interesting one.
However, as I have no musical talent whatsoever, different versions are unlikely to ever be made.
I presently have an offer from a forum member to put some music to the lyrics and I'm really looking forward to what he does as he worked on one of my previous songs and did a great job.
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I feel you've written two very good songs that don't necessarily meet.
The verses seem to be directed at someone other then the singer. The person feeling the pain isn't the singer, similar to Bridge Over Troubled Water. And yet the chorus is the singer expressing his/her pain. For me the song would work if the verses were written in the first person.
On balance I would go with changing the verses into the first person. I agree with Hardtwistmusic. The thought of suicide makes the lyrics difficult to empathise with.
If you disagree please feel free to ignore my suggestions.
Keith
Hi Keith... I agree entirely with your observations. I've changed the verses to first person for the time being, though I think it adds a bit of 'hardness' to the lines and they were much softer in the third person (I know what I mean even if no one else does ;D) I'll see if anyone else has a view over the next couple of days and then I might reverse them and put the chorus in third person to see how that goes down.
I stand by my previous comments about the subject matter and it's intention but understand fully why it may polarise people, at least it makes for interesting debate about what's acceptable and what isn't I guess.
Many thanks for your contribution...
Hi Arkwright,
I think the hardness comes from the subject matter. By making the lyrics internally consistent it brings out the nature of the song. Life is so difficult you can only find peace in suicide. When the verses are written in the first person the meaning of the song is clear. There is no escape because you've made up your mind.
When the verse is written in the third person it gives the song hope that the singer can help the person being sung to.
As you've noted, the first person is hard, the third person softer, that's people generally prefer hope over despair.
I think you'll find another contradiction when you come to put the verse and chorus into the third person, but, if you don't mind, I'll wait and see if you come to the same conclusion I did when I tried it.
Hopefully you'll get some more feedback on your changes.
Keith
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Hi Arkwright
Well, you've waded into some deep murky waters here..
I think it's a well written piece even if it's limited to a few genres (that support dark subject matter) For me there is a subtle "tense" issue. The verses read like "when this happens", then the chorus answers with "I do this". But, you can commit suicide only once so I don't understand how the sequence can be repeated? Maybe he can "plan" to do something in the earlier choruses, then do it in the end? And while I'm whining, I also wasn't keen on "heartbreak motel". It's a tough subject to write about so kudos for taking a run at it - I'll never be that brave!
Paul
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Hi Mr Arkwright
I'm choosing to read the lyric (with a tweak or two perhaps) not as a suicide note but a withdrawal from life sort of thing. Life goes on, but is that good or bad if you like.
'I can't live if living is without you' doesn't necessarily mean throwing yourself off a cliff.
So with this in mind (and I prefer it like that) he won't be checking out of Heartbreak Hotel but checking in. Damn shame somebody else got there first because this is the obvious punchline.
Anyway I've come up with some music for this. It's suitably melancholic in a minor key but hopefully you won't want to slit your wrists after hearing it.
If you're interested I'll get in touch after I've managed to do a rough recording?
I realise you haven't submitted it for a collaboration but why not?
Perhaps we could rustle up somebody to do an appropriate vocal etc etc.
I like the lyric...just needs a bit of honing I think...
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Having read all the comments so far, I thought now would be a good time to give my take on these lyrics and how they came about.
Firstly let me say that when I penned them, I did not have in mind a main protagonist who ultimately commits suicide. I understand how many people have now come to interpret the lyrics in that way and it makes me feel a little uneasy that the lyrics could have a detrimental effect on someone reading/listening to them.
The lyrics in truth are a very condensed expression of the feelings I listen to most days in the job I do working with very vulnerable young people with some serious mental health and psychological problems problems. They talk to me about the dark places they go to, about the feelings of ending it all, about the sense of hopelessness etc. After 25 years doing this kind of work and working with hundreds of young people, it is only a tiny almost imperceptible percent who ultimately took their own lives, but each and everyone one of them had the kind of feelings contained in the lyrics. I think my intention was to simply highlight and express some of those feelings without it becoming a pro suicide song.
Now with hindsight after looking at some of the comments, I may have to concede I got it wrong and I was seriously considering taking the lyrics down.
However, I am grateful for Cramers input who has managed to explain clearly what I have been unable to explain and his example of 'Can't live if living is without you' helps me feel a little more comfortable about what I've written.
The lyrics will still remain open to interpretation and it's not my intention to try and change anyone's interpretation, but I thought it important to clarify where I was coming from when I wrote it. ;D
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Anyway I've come up with some music for this. It's suitably melancholic in a minor key but hopefully you won't want to slit your wrists after hearing it.
If you're interested I'll get in touch after I've managed to do a rough recording?
I realise you haven't submitted it for a collaboration but why not?
Perhaps we could rustle up somebody to do an appropriate vocal etc etc.
I like the lyric...just needs a bit of honing I think...
Hey Cramer, many thanks for your input into these slightly controversial lyrics.
You will see in my post above, I have addressed some of the issues that have been brought up, so I won't repeat myself.
I haven't put this in collaborations as Neil C messaged me early on asking if he could have a crack at creating some music.
I certainly don't have a problem with anyone else having a go, but I wouldn't want Neil to feel offended in any way if it was being worked on by multiple people. I'm not really sure what the etiquette is in this situation.
Cheers...
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Hi Arkwright
Well, you've waded into some deep murky waters here..
I think it's a well written piece even if it's limited to a few genres (that support dark subject matter) For me there is a subtle "tense" issue. The verses read like "when this happens", then the chorus answers with "I do this". But, you can commit suicide only once so I don't understand how the sequence can be repeated? Maybe he can "plan" to do something in the earlier choruses, then do it in the end? And while I'm whining, I also wasn't keen on "heartbreak motel". It's a tough subject to write about so kudos for taking a run at it - I'll never be that brave!
Paul
Hey Paul thanks for your comments, always appreciated...
I think I get what you mean about about the finality of the chorus and then repeating the act a second time, but in my head this wasn't about a single protagonist and more about the different feelings many people have that could (but in most cases doesn't) lead them to taking their own life.
I'm going to edit the lyrics into the third person perspective shortly as I'd mentioned I would do in an earlier post. I'm not sure it will make much difference to the point you make but maybe it will.
I've also changed the last line of the chorus as it's been mentioned a couple of times, though I'm not entirely happy with the change I've made, so any suggestions would be welcome.
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"Last Chance Motel"
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Hey Lillypilly, thanks for the suggestion...
I've tried "last chance motel' and quite like it. Unfortunately I've used the wood 'last' at the end of the previous line and not sure it works for that reason.
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Oh yes....I clearly missed that, didn't I ?
OK...Neil's bagged this one then...fair enough....I'll go back to sleep....
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Hi Arkwright
Well, you've waded into some deep murky waters here..
I think it's a well written piece even if it's limited to a few genres (that support dark subject matter) For me there is a subtle "tense" issue. The verses read like "when this happens", then the chorus answers with "I do this". But, you can commit suicide only once so I don't understand how the sequence can be repeated? Maybe he can "plan" to do something in the earlier choruses, then do it in the end? And while I'm whining, I also wasn't keen on "heartbreak motel". It's a tough subject to write about so kudos for taking a run at it - I'll never be that brave!
Paul
Hey Paul thanks for your comments, always appreciated...
I think I get what you mean about about the finality of the chorus and then repeating the act a second time, but in my head this wasn't about a single protagonist and more about the different feelings many people have that could (but in most cases doesn't) lead them to taking their own life.
I'm going to edit the lyrics into the third person perspective shortly as I'd mentioned I would do in an earlier post. I'm not sure it will make much difference to the point you make but maybe it will.
I've also changed the last line of the chorus as it's been mentioned a couple of times, though I'm not entirely happy with the change I've made, so any suggestions would be welcome.
That makes sense - like I said it's only a subtle thing with me and prob no-one else would notice or care. What about "life's run-down motel" or "sordid motel" if you want a near rhyme with world?
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Oh God...... don't take the lyrics down. Look at the discussion about this important subject you have sparked.
AND... as you say, the song isn't intended to be about a final result of suicide. It's intended to be about the feelings of hopeessness that leads to it.
THAT is an utterly and vitally important subject. And it's incredibly difficult to capture the one without evoking the other.
My suggestion would be to keep working the song (usually best done after setting it aside for awhile) and then work to provide readers/listeners some insight that lets us in on that intent.
And.... fwiw... even though it doesn't imply suicide.... "Can't live if living is without you" is (like many love songs) frightfully dysfunctional in it's own right.
Fixating on another person as "necessary to an extreme" is a staple of love songs, but in real life, it very often leads to tragedies. In many songs AND movies, there is a fine, thin line between stalking and true love. As a counselor, I'm sure you have seen that.
While I personally am biased against anything that can be perceived as "promoting suicide", I would NEVER wish to be an agent of censorship and prevent other people from communicating thoughts outside my own bias. I would feel terrible if you were (even voluntarily) prevented from communicating your experiences because of my personal bias.
Again.... I REALLY hope you do not take this lyric down. It's a great lyric with just the one (unintended) mis-communication. Fix it, don't remove it.
Really, since our/your intent with every lyric is to "have an impact" this is probably one of the most effective lyrics ever posted here. This is what writing is all about. You have "provoked thought."
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Sorry to hog up the discussion.
Here is one suggestion for leading the listener away from a final result of suicide.
CHORUS
I walk a fine line
Between love and hate
While destiny fights
To enrich my fate
With a tainted heart
I bid the world farewell
Checkin’ out one more time
From life’s last chance motel
The subtle change creates and communicates an ongoing fear and depression instead of a tragic "final solution."
There's probably a better wording available, but you can see the direction. Hope that helps.
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Hi Arkwright,
I may be the only one but I like "heartbreak motel". I feel the image of "heartbreak hotel" strengthens your lyrics not weakens them. I see it as a musical metaphor and gives your words the added power of Elvis. I approach Springsteen's Promised Land in the same way. The optimism of Chuck Berry turned into 1980s despair.
One of the problems in writing lyrics is showing people what's inside your head. You must have had lots of experience of people pulling themselves back from that kind of despair. That experience allows you think of alternatives to suicide. The majority of us don't have that experience and take "I bid the world farewell" to mean suicide.
Given your explanation I'd consider adding a middle 8/bridge which explains how you come back from the brink. The Hollywood answer is a damsel in shining armour on a white stead. A better lyric could be based on the real life struggles you have seen.
You could alter the last chorus to read "I bid that world farewell". The song then finishes on an optimist note. If you follow this I'd write it in the first person, it'll have more power.
As ever if you disagree please ignore me.
Keith
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Thanks once again to Hardtwist and Keith for your comments.
I won't take the lyrics down unless expressly asked to do so. I agree that debate is healthy and it's a subject I'm always happy to debate as it's such an integral part of my life.
The last two lines of the chorus appear to be one of the main areas of contention, as that's where the 'finality' is suggested.
If I changed the lines to something like:
"Checking IN one more time
To heartbreak/last chance hotel"
Would this suggest the protagonist has recognised the extent of their despair and they are seeking help?
I also like the idea of a middle eight but would need some thought as there is very rarely a knight in shining armour that can resolve the issues and it wouldn't be true to the reality of people in this situation. That said, I will give it done serious thought and might be able to squeeze in a message of hope.
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OK, I've made some subtle changes to the last three lines of the second chorus that I think give a different message to the first chorus and in doing so, I think the outro is now a positive message suggesting they have overcome their demons and are now at peace with themselves and the world.
Would appreciate feedback on whether anyone else feels the changes achieve what I think they achieve..
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Hi,
Interpretation is in the head of the beholder. Speaking personally, my thoughts were coming from the same head and direction of "Cramer" But people come from all kinds of directions when discussing the works of say, Dylan, Cohen and Nick Cave, to name just three. But that's art, and you take what you can get, long as you get something. Anyway, good to have you back. First post since the flood, and the "Ark" is already making waves.
Vintage54
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I feel the song loses some of its power as you move away from the heartbreak motel line.
I meant to post this earlier but football and work got in the way. I've sketched out a middle 8 which builds on the theme of suicide but provides a resolution whereby the singer carries on. Fell free to ignore my words or take whatever you feel will work.
Middle 8
I see my tears in the mirror
I see the bottle on the dresser
I feel the embrace of my mother
I feel the strength of my father
I hear the ticking of time
I hear laughter that isn't mine
I see sunbeams dance on the floor
I see my smile in the mirror
followed by the chorus. As you know I'd stick with the original formulation slightly amended.
Keith
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Hello Arkwright,
A good set of lyrics and very dark too. How strange that words find their way from pen to paper when they don't reflect a mood. my writing is pretty much a commentary of my life and feelings. We all write differently and I can see that you've shaped your lyrics rather well.
Paul
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I feel the song loses some of its power as you move away from the heartbreak motel line.
I meant to post this earlier but football and work got in the way. I've sketched out a middle 8 which builds on the theme of suicide but provides a resolution whereby the singer carries on. Fell free to ignore my words or take whatever you feel will work.
Middle 8
I see my tears in the mirror
I see the bottle on the dresser
I feel the embrace of my mother
I feel the strength of my father
I hear the ticking of time
I hear laughter that isn't mine
I see sunbeams dance on the floor
I see my smile in the mirror
Hey Keith, thanks for your suggestions. As the 'Heartbreak Motel' line now seems equally divided on opinion, I've decided to go with it as it was my original idea.
I don't dislike your middle 8, in fact I think it's excellent. Unfortunately it doesn't in this instance reflect the reality of the thoughts and feelings that I listen to on a regular basis. The young people I work with certainly don't feel the embrace of their mother or the strength of their father. The last four lines may have some mileage and I might have a play with them if that's ok.
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I feel the song loses some of its power as you move away from the heartbreak motel line.
I meant to post this earlier but football and work got in the way. I've sketched out a middle 8 which builds on the theme of suicide but provides a resolution whereby the singer carries on. Fell free to ignore my words or take whatever you feel will work.
Middle 8
I see my tears in the mirror
I see the bottle on the dresser
I feel the embrace of my mother
I feel the strength of my father
I hear the ticking of time
I hear laughter that isn't mine
I see sunbeams dance on the floor
I see my smile in the mirror
Hey Keith, thanks for your suggestions. As the 'Heartbreak Motel' line now seems equally divided on opinion, I've decided to go with it as it was my original idea.
I don't dislike your middle 8, in fact I think it's excellent. Unfortunately it doesn't in this instance reflect the reality of the thoughts and feelings that I listen to on a regular basis. The young people I work with certainly don't feel the embrace of their mother or the strength of their father. The last four lines may have some mileage and I might have a play with them if that's ok.
Feel free to rewrite them as you please. I thought the mother and father may not work, especially as they may be the reasons why. I wanted to show how it was possible to get from feeling suicidal to coming through the other end and they happened to fit the rhyming scheme.
Looking forward to what you come up with.
Keith
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Hey Keith
Just a quick update to say I've used a couple of your suggested lines for a middle 8 and added a few of my own. It may not have turned out to give the impression of optimism you suggested but it's not all negative. Let me know what you and anyone else thinks.
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OK... All change again. Decided to add another verse, but not sure it needs a middle eight as well. Would be ingested to hear peoples thoughts are on having a third verse but no middle eight or having both.
I'll post the lyrics again below to save people having to keep going back to the first page.
VERSE 1
When silence becomes
The only sound I hear
When every thought I have
Leaves me filled with fear
When the darkness falls
And the light fails to rise
When the world looks bleak
Through sightless eyes
CHORUS
I walk a fine line
Between love and hate
While destiny fights
To enrich my fate
With a tainted heart
I bid the world farewell
Checkin’ in once again
To life’s "Heartbreak Hotel'
VERSE 2
When all I have left
Is a heart prone to weep
When all I desire
Is dark endless sleep
When life passes by
And I miss the last train
When the tears that I shed
Are obscured by the rain
MIDDLE 8
I see the bottle on the dresser
I see the answer in the mirror
I hear the slow ticking of time
I hear the laughter that isn't mine
I feel the faith slipping away
I feel the need for a brighter day
I long for strength to help me cope
I long for someone to give me hope
VERSE 3
When I look in the mirror
And tell myself lies
When the smile turns to frown
And the laughter dies
When I reach for the bottle
And the well has run dry
When the pain is so real
And I can no longer cry
CHORUS
I walk a fine line
Between love and hate
While destiny fights
To enrich my fate
With a tainted heart
I bid the world farewell
Checkin’ out for the last
From life's "Heartbreak Hotel'
OUTRO
When a new day dawns
And my sorrows they cease
When the pain is no more
I can embrace my peace
When the pain is no more
I can embrace my peace