[Nick Ryder]

Hi all.

As this is actually a songwriter forum, I thought I'd write an article on things I have learnt in the last three years. This is a songwriter forum, but just recently it seems to be just a vehicle for members to post their songs for feedback.

Anyway....

I try to apply these rules to me and my processes, and I'm sure they will not work for everyone.

In no particular order.

Listen to commercial tracks for reference. Successful music is so for a reason. They have been written and produced by professionals so they should always be the benchmark of what to aim for. Pick a song which is similar in style and production to what you are working on and compare the difference. How does the intro work? How long does it take to get to the hook? Why does it appeal to the listener?

Edit your songs. Never go with your first draft and don't rush. Some songs can take months or years to develop. Don't be scared of cutting sections down or even removing them completely. Is there a lyric which doesn't work? Maybe use www.rhymezone.com for alternatives.

If you cannot sing then get someone else to record vocals for you. Seriously, if you have a good song but can't sing then it will put people off and they will not give your song the chance it deserves. There are plenty of great singers on Fiverr who would charge around £20 - £30 for a great vocal track.

Have a reason for the listener to come back. So many songs on here are great, but lack that something special which you often hear on commercial releases. Examples being verse, bridge.... and then back to a verse and bridge to finish. To me, many of the songs need to go somewhere else but they don't. That extra push to get it over the line could make so much difference so don't be lazy songwriters!!

Dynamics. Songs need dynamics and ear candy to keep the listener engaged. Simple tricks like open hi hats on beat 4, added percussion in chorus sections, backing vocals etc all add dynamics. In some ways, good dynamics can make an average song sound interesting.

Mixing. If you cannot mix then pay someone else to. A flat mix can ruin a good song. If your song is good then it deserves to have a good mix.

And finally, I'd just say work hard and strive for perfection. Good songs often require hard work, lots of time and meticulous attention to detail before they can be classed as good.

Whilst songwriting is an art form, its also about the work you put into it.

Anyway, just some random thoughts from me and I accept that not everyone will agree, but that's ok

Thanks for reading.

[Dorian]

@Nick Ryder

Hi Nick,

Excellent read. My two copper:

If you cannot mix, learn how to do it. Read a lot, learn from others, watch video’s on the subject, use the proper gear / VST’s, put a lot of time in it. If you don’t have the time, watch less television programs  or find the time in the evening hours.

If you don’t know what works in a production, learn about music theory and such. Also learn how different types of guitars, bass guitars and drum kits sound, what types of synth & orchestral sounds exist and how they are used in professional productions.

Listen to your songs in different environments and/or at different speaker systems. Don’t be shy to listen to them together with friends or relatives. Even though they might not always be musicians themselves, they have a sense of what sounds right and what doesn’t.

Most musicians and creative folks are struggling to make a living, and to my opinion we must therefore support one another. So, as a rule I only use sample library VST’s by companies that pay musicians providing content (such as Orchestral Tools and XLN Audio). It's bad enough that musicians are generally replaced by samples, and if I had a million euro's I would deffinately hire real musicians for instruments I cannot afford or cannot play myself, but as a home recording song writer I simply don't have the means.

Also, I will never use torrent VST’s; always paying for VST’’s. They are small creative companies that want to make a decent living.

AI tools that base their algorithms on stealing work from artists are an absolute no go for me, not only because they steal copyrighted art and just mix it up in a slightly different form, but also because it's downright lazy. Writing a prompt isn't making music. It's like asking a DJ at a club to play some music, afterwards telling everyone you created it because you ordered it. (If you use AI in a truly creative, non-copyrighted form, that's probably an entirely different matter, but I personally have no experience with that.)

Greetings, Dorian

[rightly]

@Nick Ryder

Hi Nick,

Excellent read. My two copper:

If you cannot mix, learn how to do it. Read a lot, learn from others, watch video’s on the subject, use the proper gear / VST’s, put a lot of time in it. If you don’t have the time, watch less television programs  or find the time in the evening hours.

If you don’t know what works in a production, learn about music theory and such. Also learn how different types of guitars, bass guitars and drum kits sound, what types of synth & orchestral sounds exist and how they are used in professional productions.

Listen to your songs in different environments and/or at different speaker systems. Don’t be shy to listen to them together with friends or relatives. Even though they might not always be musicians themselves, they have a sense of what sounds right and what doesn’t.

Most musicians and creative folks are struggling to make a living, and to my opinion we must therefore support one another. So, as a rule I only use sample library VST’s by companies that pay musicians providing content (such as Orchestral Tools and XLN Audio). It's bad enough that musicians are generally replaced by samples, and if I had a million euro's I would deffinately hire real musicians for instruments I cannot afford or cannot play myself, but as a home recording song writer I simply don't have the means.

Also, I will never use torrent VST’s; always paying for VST’’s. They are small creative companies that want to make a decent living.

AI tools that base their algorithms on stealing work from artists are an absolute no go for me, not only because they steal copyrighted art and just mix it up in a slightly different form, but also because it's downright lazy. Writing a prompt isn't making music. It's like asking a DJ at a club to play some music, afterwards telling everyone you created it because you ordered it. (If you use AI in a truly creative, non-copyrighted form, that's probably an entirely different matter, but I personally have no experience with that.)

Greetings, Dorian

@Dorian

I can agree with all of this dorian.
Thanks for taking the time to air your thoughts on this matter.
I'll contribute when I've time.

[Nick Ryder]

@Nick Ryder

Hi Nick,

Excellent read. My two copper:

If you cannot mix, learn how to do it. Read a lot, learn from others, watch video’s on the subject, use the proper gear / VST’s, put a lot of time in it. If you don’t have the time, watch less television programs  or find the time in the evening hours.

If you don’t know what works in a production, learn about music theory and such. Also learn how different types of guitars, bass guitars and drum kits sound, what types of synth & orchestral sounds exist and how they are used in professional productions.

Listen to your songs in different environments and/or at different speaker systems. Don’t be shy to listen to them together with friends or relatives. Even though they might not always be musicians themselves, they have a sense of what sounds right and what doesn’t.

Most musicians and creative folks are struggling to make a living, and to my opinion we must therefore support one another. So, as a rule I only use sample library VST’s by companies that pay musicians providing content (such as Orchestral Tools and XLN Audio). It's bad enough that musicians are generally replaced by samples, and if I had a million euro's I would deffinately hire real musicians for instruments I cannot afford or cannot play myself, but as a home recording song writer I simply don't have the means.

Also, I will never use torrent VST’s; always paying for VST’’s. They are small creative companies that want to make a decent living.

AI tools that base their algorithms on stealing work from artists are an absolute no go for me, not only because they steal copyrighted art and just mix it up in a slightly different form, but also because it's downright lazy. Writing a prompt isn't making music. It's like asking a DJ at a club to play some music, afterwards telling everyone you created it because you ordered it. (If you use AI in a truly creative, non-copyrighted form, that's probably an entirely different matter, but I personally have no experience with that.)

Greetings, Dorian

Hey, @Dorian many thanks for contributing.

I think the only thing from my point of view is the point you make about learning to mix. I actually started on this path and soon realised that it is such a big subject and would extremely time consuming which would be time I'd have sacrifice at the expense of time being creative.

So I choose to use my time to be creative and leave the mixing to other people who can do it far better than I ever could.

Plus, I think a second pair of ears is also beneficial

[Elvis Nash]

I agree with all that has been posted except hiring session players is to pricey , Its not really that much if you go to fiverr and look around , I hire the hungry ones . If the player has been around...they jack their price up. If you get them starting off , they're cheap. No I don't mess with mixing either , Its a broad learning curve , I have a pro for that . I study a few vids just to be in the loop on what they're doing , but that's about it .

Now back to lyrics , I write a ton on my own but sometimes pay to write with hit writers , You might think that's cheating , Well not really if the song is better than I'm writing , You can waste valuable time and money on a song that's lays flat on your own . Pride still doesn't pay to well lol
Everybody in Nashville co-writes , You might see 4 writers on a song , it comes down to you might miss something on your own. Some pop songs have 9 writers , I don't see the sense in that , But who knows they make millions

[Nick Ryder]

I agree with all that has been posted except hiring session players is to pricey , Its not really that much if you go to fiverr and look around , I hire the hungry ones . If the player has been around...they jack their price up. If you get them starting off , they're cheap. No I don't mess with mixing either , Its a broad learning curve , I have a pro for that . I study a few vids just to be in the loop on what they're doing , but that's about it .

Now back to lyrics , I write a ton on my own but sometimes pay to write with hit writers , You might think that's cheating , Well not really if the song is better than I'm writing , You can waste valuable time and money on a song that's lays flat on your own . Pride still doesn't pay to well lol
Everybody in Nashville co-writes , You might see 4 writers on a song , it comes down to you might miss something on your own. Some pop songs have 9 writers , I don't see the sense in that , But who knows they make millions

Hey, @Elvis Nash This is really interesting to read. I did not know that pro songwriters offered co-writing services.

I'm also amazed that up to 9 people can be involved in writing country songs in Nashville. 9 people and its still country music LOL

I have a friend who only ever co-writes and it frustrated me because I don't know whether he's any good or not because I don't know which bits or how much of the song he's written.

I'm way too much of a narcissist to co-write. I prefer to take full credit regardless of whether my songs are good or bad

[Dorian]

I think the only thing from my point of view is the point you make about learning to mix. I actually started on this path and soon realised that it is such a big subject and would extremely time consuming which would be time I'd have sacrifice at the expense of time being creative.

@Nick Ryder
My post is of course also about my personal rules (all in the spirit of you initial topic post). By no means would I ever suggest others should also mix their own songs.

Since I started to take mixing serious (about two years ago) I found that I loved it so much, that it sort of became a second hobby of mine. I confess I like it even more than writing lyrics and even playing guitar  . Also, i found that mixing can be just as creative as making music. So I ended up doing both: making music and mixing. It’s still a steep learning curve, but gradually I’m getting better at it.

I agree with all that has been posted except hiring session players is to pricey , Its not really that much if you go to fiverr and look around.

@Elvis Nash
In my case, music is “just” a hobby. I have an arrangement with my partner on how much money I’m allowed to spend on it, which is fair since we share a household. Until now I spend it all on buying VSTs, guitars, synths and pedals and such. If (…) I would ever make money from making music, things might change, but that’s not realistic for now.

I'm way too much of a narcissist to co-write.

Haha  I’d rather prefer to call it “determined” or “having a strong opinion”, which is okay. After all, it’s our own creative work of art we’re talking about. We’re allowed to be a bit protective when it comes to that. No harm to the world done.

[Nick Ryder]

@Dorian

I am jealous of you. I would LOVE to be able to mix. I have tried with mixed results, and I do enjoy the process.

Maybe when the creativity dries up I will start to learn more about it again!!

[rightly]

This is an interesting thread. Thought provoking comments that have encouraged me to take the time to reassess.
A bit hungover ... but

Some thoughts.

I like to sing and write.
To address a topic that plays on my mind and find a persona and see where it leads.
The mixing part is quite the challenge, only sometimes do I enjoy it. I'm determined to improve.
I'll often have an idea of how I want it to sound but the idea isn't fixed.
Happy accidents seem to determine a lot.

I try to get 10 track albums done and 1 or 2 collaborations can make things interesting.
I'd rather break myself trying to learn some new skill than outsource it, I'd sooner outsource something I can do. I wouldn't recommend this.  😆

Collaborations can be revolutionary but are often difficult.
Singing someone else's lyrics is like wearing their clothes. It can feel weird, and although it does happen, it's rarely constructive.
They can be liberating.

I'm certainly not one for chasing fixed ideals.
A "hit song", or what some might call "a proper song" with all the elements that some think are inherently essential.
Listening to such "hits" often leave me feeling nauseous or violated.
There's nothing wrong with others religiously striving to become a flawless stereotype but it bothers me when they try coerce me or anyone else to "get in line"

We never would've heard of
talking heads, Dylan,
the sex pistols, led zeppelin etc.
if they had been terrified of breaking the mold.

I never listen to Rihanna or Ed shernan
They're probably somehow brilliant. I don't know or care.

Imitating an established artist, or even producing a cover song can be dull for me, but there's a lot to learn that way. I vaguely intend to put an album of cover songs together.

I'm not trying to make money with music and that's liberating.
Success for me is enjoying the production, to whatever extent and finishing with a song that I like.
Some people seem to think a song is successful if it sounds commercial, even if they don't sell a single unit. I find this absurd.

The last (new for me) artist I actively listened to was Ian Dury. He's great.

That's all for now.

[Elvis Nash]

I agree with all that has been posted except hiring session players is to pricey , Its not really that much if you go to fiverr and look around , I hire the hungry ones . If the player has been around...they jack their price up. If you get them starting off , they're cheap. No I don't mess with mixing either , Its a broad learning curve , I have a pro for that . I study a few vids just to be in the loop on what they're doing , but that's about it .

Now back to lyrics , I write a ton on my own but sometimes pay to write with hit writers , You might think that's cheating , Well not really if the song is better than I'm writing , You can waste valuable time and money on a song that's lays flat on your own . Pride still doesn't pay to well lol
Everybody in Nashville co-writes , You might see 4 writers on a song , it comes down to you might miss something on your own. Some pop songs have 9 writers , I don't see the sense in that , But who knows they make millions

Hey, @Elvis Nash This is really interesting to read. I did not know that pro songwriters offered co-writing services.

I'm also amazed that up to 9 people can be involved in writing country songs in Nashville. 9 people and its still country music LOL

I have a friend who only ever co-writes and it frustrated me because I don't know whether he's any good or not because I don't know which bits or how much of the song he's written.

I'm way too much of a narcissist to co-write. I prefer to take full credit regardless of whether my songs are good or bad

I highly doubt Nick Ryder is a narcissist person. You just figured it out . Gordon Lightfoot wrote all his own songs along with a tons of other artists, I'm sure in 2024 also. I'm not real bright, so I've worked with several hit writers . Like I said I just call it going to college. Yeah I hear yeah with 4 or 9 writers on a song is a bit boggling , Co -writing in it self is challenging. The ego needs to be left at the doorstep . If your lucky each writer excepts a great line over their own .  Lets say what a hit writer is , He or she wrote a song a artist wants sing and he or she got paid by his or her publisher , Basically. I won't bore anyone on Spoitfy splits, You've all read the payouts  . Artists and hit writers are apples and oranges, A hit writer is always concerned what a artist will sing . Artists can sing anything they want . This is just my opinion.  On our on-going joke on country music some are a bit neon light and sat nightish . But new and young artists stray away from all that .

[Nick Ryder]

@Elvis Nash

It's a Paradox. I know that I am a narcissist, but that fact I am aware of it means that I'm not one because narcissists don't know they're narcissists

Work that one out haha!!

[Nick Ryder]

I think the only thing from my point of view is the point you make about learning to mix. I actually started on this path and soon realised that it is such a big subject and would extremely time consuming which would be time I'd have sacrifice at the expense of time being creative.

@Nick Ryder
My post is of course also about my personal rules (all in the spirit of you initial topic post). By no means would I ever suggest others should also mix their own songs.

Since I started to take mixing serious (about two years ago) I found that I loved it so much, that it sort of became a second hobby of mine. I confess I like it even more than writing lyrics and even playing guitar  . Also, i found that mixing can be just as creative as making music. So I ended up doing both: making music and mixing. It’s still a steep learning curve, but gradually I’m getting better at it.

I agree with all that has been posted except hiring session players is to pricey , Its not really that much if you go to fiverr and look around.

@Elvis Nash
In my case, music is “just” a hobby. I have an arrangement with my partner on how much money I’m allowed to spend on it, which is fair since we share a household. Until now I spend it all on buying VSTs, guitars, synths and pedals and such. If (…) I would ever make money from making music, things might change, but that’s not realistic for now.

I'm way too much of a narcissist to co-write.

Haha  I’d rather prefer to call it “determined” or “having a strong opinion”, which is okay. After all, it’s our own creative work of art we’re talking about. We’re allowed to be a bit protective when it comes to that. No harm to the world done.

Great feedback. This is so interesting getting to know what drives people.

[Nick Ryder]

This is an interesting thread. Thought provoking comments that have encouraged me to take the time to reassess.
A bit hungover ... but

Some thoughts.

I like to sing and write.
To address a topic that plays on my mind and find a persona and see where it leads.
The mixing part is quite the challenge, only sometimes do I enjoy it. I'm determined to improve.
I'll often have an idea of how I want it to sound but the idea isn't fixed.
Happy accidents seem to determine a lot.

I try to get 10 track albums done and 1 or 2 collaborations can make things interesting.
I'd rather break myself trying to learn some new skill than outsource it, I'd sooner outsource something I can do. I wouldn't recommend this.  😆

Collaborations can be revolutionary but are often difficult.
Singing someone else's lyrics is like wearing their clothes. It can feel weird, and although it does happen, it's rarely constructive.
They can be liberating.

I'm certainly not one for chasing fixed ideals.
A "hit song", or what some might call "a proper song" with all the elements that some think are inherently essential.
Listening to such "hits" often leave me feeling nauseous or violated.
There's nothing wrong with others religiously striving to become a flawless stereotype but it bothers me when they try coerce me or anyone else to "get in line"

We never would've heard of
talking heads, Dylan,
the sex pistols, led zeppelin etc.
if they had been terrified of breaking the mold.

I never listen to Rihanna or Ed shernan
They're probably somehow brilliant. I don't know or care.

Imitating an established artist, or even producing a cover song can be dull for me, but there's a lot to learn that way. I vaguely intend to put an album of cover songs together.

I'm not trying to make money with music and that's liberating.
Success for me is enjoying the production, to whatever extent and finishing with a song that I like.
Some people seem to think a song is successful if it sounds commercial, even if they don't sell a single unit. I find this absurd.

The last (new for me) artist I actively listened to was Ian Dury. He's great.

That's all for now.

Again, interesting getting your perspective, @rightly

[Elvis Nash]

@Elvis Nash

It's a Paradox. I know that I am a narcissist, but that fact I am aware of it means that I'm not one because narcissists don't know they're narcissists

Work that one out haha!!

Well I smashed my Iphone to bits and bought a Android , So I'm a narcissist, I hate Apple , Well it will take 15 days to re set your Apple ID , Not its not I just smashed this phone with a hammer , Yes I feel better now . No thanks Nick i have no idea what a paradox is , I'll google it . Right ... A paradox is a logically self-contradictory statement or a statement that runs contrary to one's expectation. that's way to complicated for a country song

[Nick Ryder]

@Elvis Nash

You definitely win the narcissist trophy