[hardtwistmusic]

For me, there's only ONE grammatical rule to follow in both prose and poetry.  

It's summed up in this question.  

"Is what the audience hears (and understands) the same thing as I what I intended to convey.  

If it is NOT, then the grammar matters.  

If it IS, then there is no problem.  For me, it's as simple as that.

The reason grammar exists is that it tends to enhance communication.  Except for THAT purpose, Grammar shouldn't be allowed to get in the way.   

[GuyBarry]

For me, there's only ONE grammatical rule to follow in both prose and poetry.  

It's summed up in this question.  

"Is what the audience hears (and understands) the same thing as I what I intended to convey.  

If it is NOT, then the grammar matters.  

If it IS, then there is no problem.  For me, it's as simple as that.

The reason grammar exists is that it tends to enhance communication. 

I couldn't agree more.  I'm not concerned about grammar for grammar's sake, but as a tool for conveying meaning.  The meaning of "I can't get no satisfaction" is perfectly clear, so the fact that it's considered "bad grammar" by some people is neither here nor there.  The meaning of "I wonder if one day that you'll say that you care" is rather less clear.  It might mean "I wonder if one day you'll say that you care", but it might not.  The singer might be saying "I wonder if, one day when you say that you care, [something else]".  In fact I think I interpreted it like that when I first heard it and got hopelessly muddled.

Ya gotta wonder what that multi millionaire songwriter Macca did wrong,doncha? 

Well, his songs have probably got a slightly bigger audience than mine!  If you're writing songs that are going to be heard by millions then you're bound to be open to far more critical scrutiny, so maybe it's as well to take that extra bit of care to make sure the lyrics can't be misinterpreted.  Although I doubt whether his accountant cares too much 

[diademgrove]

The meaning of "I wonder if one day that you'll say that you care" is rather less clear.  It might mean "I wonder if one day you'll say that you care", but it might not.  The singer might be saying "I wonder if, one day when you say that you care, [something else]".  In fact I think I interpreted it like that when I first heard it and got hopelessly muddled.

To me the "that"s are full stops to fit the tune. I don't think they are meant to be taken too literally. To me Sandie is saying is: I wonder if one day. You will say. You care. Or if you want to be more precise: I wonder if one day that! You will say that! You care.

For me the meaning is the same. If he shows the slightest indication he loves her, she'll be there to dance for him like a puppet on a string.

[GTB]

"Is what the audience hears (and understands) the same thing as I what I intended to convey.  ". HTM

I couldn't agree more. There are many times when deliberate bad grammar helps to get the message over.  Anyone feel a need to correct the grammar in these lines?
Ain't nobody loves me better
Can't buy me love
Etc.

To me, 'bad grammer' in music is like passing notes. I.e. Just as valid a tool as good grammar, or the 'right' notes.

Well, that's my take 😀

[GuyBarry]

"Is what the audience hears (and understands) the same thing as I what I intended to convey.  ". HTM

I couldn't agree more. There are many times when deliberate bad grammar helps to get the message over.  Anyone feel a need to correct the grammar in these lines?
Ain't nobody loves me better

No of course not.  You've missed the point.  Never mind.

Can't buy me love

How is that ungrammatical?

[GuyBarry]

I'm sorry but this thread is really starting to annoy me.  In my original post I said:

This put me in mind of those occasions where, for reasons of rhyme or scansion, a lyricist has accidentally turned grammatical English into nonsense.

  (my emphasis)

And that's all I said.  I said nothing about occasions where lyricists use deliberately colloquial language in order to make a statement.  That's fine.

The only person who really seems to have got my point is Viscount Cramer (although I think delb0y and adamfarr understood where I was coming from, and maybe diademgrove as well).  It's about sticking random words in lyrics (or leaving them out) to make them scan or rhyme properly.

Maybe I shouldn't have called the thread "Ungrammatical lyrics".  I should have called it "Badly structured lyrics", or something.

Am I being too subtle?

[tina m]

its what happens when you get a long thread people dont read the ones at the start

the other thing guy is your point of view is probably very different to what most of the rest of us have...
music is something that just happens when i pick up a guitar... i dont study it or think about any theory
its the same with lyrics as long as im pleased with the finished article im not bothered whether it breaks rules... why would i want to restrict myself
i think the type of song you write demands something very different to what i feel i need for my stuff
you are not too subtle but i think people are thinking you are a bit high & mighty

[pompeyjazz]

Honestly !! Does it really matter. People interpret lyrics in their own way irrespective of what the writer intended. And does it really matter ? If you enjoy the song but are confused by the lyrics - great. I love being confused. Makes the brain tick a bit more.

Cheers

Pompeyjazz

[CaliaMoko]

Unless you think there's still some good that could come from the thread, you could lock it.

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

And I think it should have been called 'Puppet On Four Strings'

Puppets don't only have one string do they? They'd just hang there.

[Boydie]

I'm sorry but this thread is really starting to annoy me.  In my original post I said:

Quote
This put me in mind of those occasions where, for reasons of rhyme or scansion, a lyricist has accidentally turned grammatical English into nonsense.
  (my emphasis)

And that's all I said.  I said nothing about occasions where lyricists use deliberately colloquial language in order to make a statement.  That's fine.

The only person who really seems to have got my point is Viscount Cramer (although I think delb0y and adamfarr understood where I was coming from, and maybe diademgrove as well).  It's about sticking random words in lyrics (or leaving them out) to make them scan or rhyme properly.

Maybe I shouldn't have called the thread "Ungrammatical lyrics".  I should have called it "Badly structured lyrics", or something.

Am I being too subtle?

I think it is a little unfair to provoke a discussion and then state that you are getting "annoyed" and almost  "attack" people for not "getting it"

The whole point of a discussion is that it "wanders" and as long as it doesn't go completely "off topic", which I don't think it ever did - it is not like everyone started talking about sausages (hmmm - sausages!)

If you want to get the discussion to focus more on your intended area then a post along the lines of "great discussion guys, what I really wanted to get in to was..."

I am not sure telling members they don't "get it" is very constructive

I appreciate the written word is not the easiest medium to have this type of discussion but there comes a point where if it is the same people that seems to raise people's hackles then I think they need to review their writing style, how they put their points across or whether this is really a suitable place for them

I like to promote "discussion" on this forum and that means listening (reading) lots of different points of views - by all means respond, disagree, provoke HEALTHY and CONSTRUCTIVE discussion

What I will not accept is posts that seem to provoke a negative discussion and the post quoted above IMHO does this

By stating you are "annoyed" and only a few people "get it" is just asking for people to attack you back - if only to defend themselves - are you calling them "stupid" for not "getting it"?

This is not the first time your posts have done this so please think about how your posts will be received before hitting the submit button

I completely appreciate you have not caused great offence, or really offended anyone, but I want to prevent this escalating as I can foresee how this thread (and future threads) could potentially unfold

If you get annoyed at this type of discussion then please consider the value of posting this fact and whether you should provoke this kind of discussion in the first place

I would ask that other members of the forum do not "react" to the comments in a negative way

I could very well be completely over-reacting to your comments but I am sure you can appreciate I am very protective of this forum and the wonderful members here that have been having discussions for many years (often heated) but normally constructive

[tone]

I'm sorry but this thread is really starting to annoy me.  In my original post I said:

Just because you started a conversation doesn't mean you can control it. This is an open community of people who share one thing: enthusiasm for writing songs. The fact that your thread has had this many replies shows that members are interested in this area of discussion. Which is great. But telling us we're annoying you is a sure fire way to put people off talking to you...

[GuyBarry]

If you want to get the discussion to focus more on your intended area then a post along the lines of "great discussion guys, what I really wanted to get in to was..."

I am not sure telling members they don't "get it" is very constructive

Yes I'm sorry, Boydie, you're completely right.  I'd had a little bit too much to drink when I wrote the post you're criticizing.  Maybe I should make sure I'm sober when I post in future 

It's been a good discussion and I appreciate everyone else's comments.  I'll move on to another topic I think.

[GuyBarry]

Unless you think there's still some good that could come from the thread, you could lock it.

Gosh, yes!  This is the only forum I've ever taken part in where ordinary members can lock threads - normally it's the prerogative of the moderators.  Maybe I'll take advantage of that.

[Boydie]

I just wanted to add a final note of thanks - your apology is completely accepted and appreciated

Drink and forums rarely mix well 

I am sure there will be plenty more juicy discussions so please continue to get stuck in