[GuyBarry]

I've been asked to run a songwriting workshop at my local community centre.  I've got experience in teaching but not in teaching music, so I've been spending part of today thinking about what to include in it.

Thinking of some of the recent discussions, I think I could do a lot worse than to start it with some good old-fashioned lessons in harmony.  I know it's really unfashionable to use all these theoretical terms like "tonic", "dominant" and "subdominant" these days but it's really informed my understanding of music.   I'm aware through some of the threads here that there are quite a lot of songwriters who know that a particular progression sounds good but don't know why it sounds good.  I'd like to go much more into helping people understand what makes some chord progressions work and others not work.

Then I'd like to do some detailed stuff on the construction of lyrics: the different scansion patterns, what counts as a rhyme and what doesn't, the use of assonance and near-rhyme, using a thesaurus and that sort of thing.  Again, it all seems terribly unfashionable nowadays but you'd be amazed by the difference a tiny tweak in the metrical structure can make.

Do you think people would want to attend a course of that type?  I'm hoping to make a bit of money out of it so I want to make sure that people are getting something of value.

[Boydie]

Do you think people would want to attend a course of that type?

IMHO I think the short answer is no 

I personally think you will run the danger of turning people off by using the technical terms in the way you have described

I am putting together my own syllabus for teaching songwriting and although I completely agree with you about the importance of theory and the technical terms you describe - I am trying really hard not to use them to ensure the course is taught in absolute plain English - and the "jargon" only gets introduced AFETR the topic has been taught

I fear you may be going down the "school" route of teaching music, which can turn off more people than it engages

I would take a step backwards and carefully consider your audience and really think about what they want/need to know to get creating - if they are youngsters that want to record pop/rock music you may need to take a different approach to teaching someone that wants to write classical pieces

You may want to consider narrowing down your course objectives - e.g. A pop writer/producer will be interested in "hooks" (which could be a course on its own!!)

e.g. My own course is going to be along the lines of "music theory and production for songwriting", which will teach a combination of music theory, lyric writing and production techniques to produce "radio ready" songs for people to release themselves or pitch to publishers/artists - my USP is that the songwriting theory will be taught "hand in hand" with production techniques that can be used to "show case" and enhance the song

What is your unique approach?

I think you can (and should) use terms like TONIC, DOMINNT, SUB-DOMINANT etc. but the interesting bit is HOW and WHY they are used and how they can be practically applied in songwriting - rather than what they are called - there is little value in knowing terms like "DOMINANT" without knowing how to apply DOMIMANT chords to your own songwriting

From my experience deciding on "how" to best teach this stuff to meet your course objectives is harder than putting the course together - assuming you already have your course objectives set?

Perhaps a starting point would be to write a single "sexy" paragraph outlining and advertising your course so we can get a feel for your objectives

[GuyBarry]

What is your unique approach?

I've just told you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtNkGxOwNo

[Boydie]

I am really sorry for trying to help you!

I will leave it with a plain no then, - I do not think people will want to attend an "old fashioned" and "unfashionable" approach to teaching songwriting workshop

You asked the question, I gave you an answer and explained why

Your "snarky" reply is a little disappointing and if you take this attitude when trying to make money from teaching songwriting then you could run in to some issues

Bearing in mind that the very good people on this forum are your "target market" and would probably be tempted by such a "workshop" if it were near them - I would be concerned by your previous interactions on this forum about alternative views to songwriting

If you adopt the same attitude as you have here then I think you will struggle and the whole thing could end up as an "argument workshop"

I wish you well with the venture but I really would re-think your "USP" to try to attract like minded people

If you get a bunch of youngsters wanting to write pop/grime/rap etc. I think you will struggle to relate your "theory centric" approach

Perhaps a workshop titled "the old fashioned approach to music theory for songwriting"

[GuyBarry]

I personally think you will run the danger of turning people off by using the technical terms in the way you have described

If they're paying to take part in the course, I would hope they'd expect to learn a little bit about the technical language.  I'm preparing a gentle introduction.

[GuyBarry]

I am really sorry for trying to help you!

I will leave it with a plain no then, - I do not think people will want to attend an "old fashioned" and "unfashionable" approach to teaching songwriting workshop

Well, actually, I do, if I present it in the right way.  We'll see.

[ScottLevi]

Just sat down excited to give my input after seeing the thread at work earlier.

Sure you wont take any use from it though.

Best of Luck,
Scott.

[Boydie]

So why ask that specific question if you don't want to hear the answers that don't fit with your point of view?

[GuyBarry]

If you get a bunch of youngsters wanting to write pop/grime/rap etc. I think you will struggle to relate your "theory centric" approach

I'm not trying to write pop/grime/rap.  I write bloody good songs which people enjoy!  And I do it the "old-fashioned" way.  Sorry.  My songs are meant to be FUN, not depressing dirges.

Anyway, enough of this.  I'm performing a set at the Rec House Sessions this Thursday here in Bath, which anyone is welcome to come and enjoy.  I'm massively looking forward to it.  Please come along and tell all your friends if you're in the area.

[tone]

Do you think people would want to attend a course of that type?

In all honesty, probably not. Maybe you should research what approaches other paid-for songwriting workshops are using and see how closely your ideas match?

I've just told you.

Just the other day I called you out for being rude and you agreed that your posts sometimes come across as rude, and you said you'd try to modify your tone in future. What happened?

Anyway, enough of this. 

Basically, your attitude comes across as this: you want to share your idea with the community because you think it's good, but when other members disagree with you, you get grumpy and defensive and don't want to engage.

This is a forum. Everyone has their own ideas, much of which is based on a great wealth of experience. If you don't like hearing members' opinions, maybe you should stop asking for them.

[Sing4me88]

Your "snarky" reply is a little disappointing and if you take this attitude when trying to make money from teaching songwriting then you could run in to some issues

You reckon - seriously??

[Hooded Singer]

lol.

[pompeyjazz]

Actually Guy, a good song does not have to be a fun song. It can be very depressing, it can be a dirge, it can be Rap, it can be Grime. In fact it can be flipping anything the writer wants it to be.

[Boydie]

a good song does not have to be a fun song. It can be very depressing, it can be a dirge, it can be Rap, it can be Grime. In fact it can be flipping anything the writer wants it to be.

Exactly - and the same "songwriting/music theory" "approaches/rules" are still applicable to all of these genres

I'm not trying to write pop/grime/rap.  I write bloody good songs which people enjoy!  And I do it the "old-fashioned" way

Ironically you have proven my point and I think my advice is even more applicable for you

You have said you don't want "pop, rap or grime" people - so what songwriting are you wanting to teach?

Perhaps your USP could (should?) be "comedy songwriting" - or "songwriting for cork sniffers" - that may ensure you attract the right kind of people that want to get in to the "nitty gritty" of music theory

There is nothing wrong with wanting to teach "traditional songwriting methods" - all I am suggesting is making sure you are upfront and advertise it as such so that you don't get pop, rap or grime types attend if you don't want them

[boolio]

Just my uneducated $0.02 worth

boolios finite guitar theorem (a bit like infinite monkey theorem)

My theorem suggests give enough ‘non trained’ people enough guitars or keyboards or drums or whatever and combine with enough pain, happiness, exasperation, psychosis, frustration, curiosity, oppression, love (requited or otherwise) hate, boredom etc., etc., etc., and every once in a (long) while you will get a Lennon, a Simon or a Bowie…

Education ruins creativity so to hell with songwriting ‘workshops’ in fact leave workshops to useful people like carpenters, mechanics, engineers etc.