Lyrics and poetry -

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Neil C

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« on: May 09, 2015, 12:27:20 PM »
Mark Ryan had an interesting observation on a collaborative tune about whether lyrics and poetry, which I thought might be worthy of wider discussion.

Quote
At 1st look at the lyrics I thought 'This is a piece of poetry and shouldn't be touched musically'. After listening to the song I still feel the same....

It wouldn't be the first time I've written some lyrics and then found that the music didn't fit. In fact I remember sitting on a plane and wrote what I consider to be some of the best lyrics I've ever written called Vic, and regardless of what I did with them musically, nothing seemed to work, so they've gone in the Mark Ryan Big Bumper Book of Poetry Smiley

So are there some poetic words that should be left and not put to music, what do others think?
 :)
Neil
songwriter of no repute..

Boydie

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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2015, 12:59:06 PM »
For me lyrics are lyrics and poems are poems - although there are seemingly obvious similarities and links - are COMPLETELY different animals in the same way a pussy cat is not a lion

IMHO (with my commercial/pop hat on) a lyric should be "simple" (I will come back to this), "conversational", direct and communicate just ONE message/emotion

By "simple" I mean that after a single listen the listener should immediately "get" the meaning of the song, which should be supported by the music

Complicated "sub plots" or tangents should be avoided in lyrics - with the exception of the "bridge" section which I think should include a different "angle" on the same situation you have set up

A lyric can (and should) include metaphor, smilies, and paint vivid "word pictures" but it should focus on "showing" rather than "telling" to help a listener connect
 


A poem can be more though provoking, "show" and "tell" a story, have more "depth" and use much more "flowery" language that not only sounds good but also looks good on the page


There is clearly more overlap when you move toward country, folk etc. but I still think the "pop" rules apply if you want your song to sound "professional" - ie like the songs on the radio or the "classics"

That is my $0.02
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shadowfax

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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2015, 06:42:11 AM »
Can't help thinking that if the music doesn't fit the lyrics then I've written the wrong music.. :)
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benjo

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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2015, 06:18:21 PM »

 hey

 thinking of how many different writing styles there are poetry / lyric
 I think it is what the writer says it is
 there is poetry in all kinds of writing even rap
 anyway for me I think you can turn any kind of write poem / lyric
 and put music to it depends how creative you are

       in my opinion,   good topic

Wicked Deeds

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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2015, 07:20:14 PM »

 hey

 thinking of how many different writing styles there are poetry / lyric
 I think it is what the writer says it is
 there is poetry in all kinds of writing even rap
 anyway for me I think you can turn any kind of write poem / lyric
 and put music to it depends how creative you are

       in my opinion,   good topic

Well said!

adamfarr

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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2015, 09:44:00 AM »
Overlapping a bit with what Boydie says, I think the main difference between poetry and a song is a "hook". Perhaps sometimes we can get a bit caught up in imagery and lyrics can get quite dense and hard to relate to.

In this case (worth posting the lyrics so we can see?), maybe try spending some time with some of the best lines or the title and see whether you have something really "hooky" that can be made into a theme, perhaps reinforcing it using some repetition and (perish the thought) reserving some of the other lines for another time if they don't contribute 100%?

I think we've all been there - I recently was brought down to earth as I was effectively told some lyrics I had proudly written were prose and not even poetry, but that's another story...

jonny.hupp

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2015, 05:20:04 AM »
I've been seeing/hearing quotes from songwriters (Sam Beam and Stuart Murdoch and others)  about how they start with melody usually and let the music form the lyric.  As others have said, poetry is poetry and lyrics are lyrics.  I would tend to agree and I've found that some of my favorite original lyrics have come from fitting lyric to melody.   When I try to write poetry and then put it to melody I feel like I'm coming across like a weird preacher who's trying to sing a sermon

Dogmax

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2015, 11:17:17 AM »
Yeah i agree with Tony (benjo)  (I think you can turn any kind of write poem / lyric and put music to it depends how creative you are)  music to me always brings a more realisation to words but i do believe that some maybe even most poets do believe that the spoken word is the only form of delivery their poems need but i don't think any of them would refuse an offer from someone to put music to their words, just to hear and then decide.

There's a beautiful fine line between the two and i guess lyrics without a chorus can be delivered both ways so again agree with Tony (I think it is what the writer says it is)

Mark Ryan

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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2015, 05:42:02 AM »
My take on this subject is this. And this was my initial intention when first making the statement.
Song lyrics, and poetry are 2 completely different beasts altogether. I know people who write lyrics first then do the music, and that is fine, because usually the writer has some form of melody or riff or hook or something already in their minds eye (Including Bernie Taupin may I add, before anyone throws that hat in the ring) and therefore when putting music to the words they only require minor tweaking. Writing down a set of words which rhyme with no idea of melody however, is completely different, and each time I have heard finished songs where this has been the case, the song has sounded forced, like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Songwriting isn't just about making words and music fit together into a legible and audible state, because anyone can do that. In fact I remember Elton John being handed a book on the Parkinson show and he sung the first paragraph to music and it sounded fine, and is a great party piece. However to make a good song there are other factors which come into play, such as delivery, feeling, flow, honesty etc etc....... 90% of the time I will write the music first and then the lyrics. The lyrics are never a conscious effort, they just come out of the music so to speak, and they write themselves in a matter of minutes. On the occasion that they don't I scrap the whole thing as I hate forcing a song. The other 10% of the time I will have a wee tune going round in my head and if I don't have an instrument handy I will maybe write a lyric down. This can work at times just as well as the other 90%. There has also been a number of occasions where I have written words down which rhyme (poetry) with no tune in my head. Each and every time I have tried to fit these to music it has never worked. It has always sounded forced, and I have therefore opted to keep them in their original form. Because I choose to do this isn't a creative failing as some have intimated previously, I just find it a more honest way of doing my work. I can put a melody to words as good as the next person, and have been known to be quite creative in doing so, so I can't agree that it depends on how creative you are. Because we can sing the menu doesn't mean the menu should be sung. That's not to say that if people want to sing the menu they shouldn't, each to their own after all. I just feel that good songs all have 1 thing in common, and that is feeling. Good songs move you in a way that nothing else can. I truly believe that from every piece of music I write comes the lyrics. They are in there already, and it's my job to coax them out through what I'm actually feeling in my heart at that particular time. They're actually a part of the music, rather than 2 separate entities. I hope this comes across in my finished work. If it doesn't then it's not a good song and I don't use it.
When someone is handed a set of words and asked to put music to it, they are being guided by the words and the content of the story inside. The melody process then is dependant on a syllable count more than anything, and being able to match these up to beats in a bar. When someone is handed a piece of music and asked to write lyrics to it, they are being guided by how the music makes them feel more than anything else, so it's a very different process, from which you get very different results. From one you get feeling, flow, truth and honesty. And from the other you get a square peg in a round hole all too often.
That's my opinion on it, but we all have different opinions and mine is only but one, and it's also not necessarily correct, just mine. There's no hard and fast rules in this game remember, and everyone has a different idea of a good song. But we're all trying to write our very own 'Imagine', or 'Blowing In the Wind', or 'You've Got A Friend' at the end of the day, and all of these great songs have 1 important thing in common, and that is they came from deep within the heart of the respective writers and were delivered with a passion and feeling that could only have come from the music which surrounded them.
My 2 bobs worth.

zero

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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2015, 05:31:02 AM »
Some poems can't be set to music. Emily Dickinson is not musical even though she wrote simple metrical rhymes.

Yet, I think Amazing Grace and All Things Bright and Beautiful were originally poems. The Doxology may have been spoken words. Some prose has been set to music.

It seems to be inherent in the "melody" of the words so it would be meter. Or, as with Amazing Grace, with the odd melody, the skill of the musician. The Star Spangled Banner is another song that shouldn't be but someone was very good with melody.

I think the musician has to read the words and "hear it." It is the skill and creativity of the musician that makes a poem a song.

Marrianna

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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 01:08:40 PM »
Choral works can be poems set to music. One of my favourites is Wordsworth's 'Daffodils'.
   
   I wandered lonely as a cloud
   That floats on high o'er vales and hills
   When all at once I saw a crowd,
   A host of golden daffodils ...

I will never forget those words and the choral arrangement I learnt during my choir days. Beautiful words and then set to beautiful music and in harmony. To know it was a poem set to music made it even more special for me and it was a popular inclusion in public performances. :)



Boydie

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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 03:52:39 PM »
I would agree that poems can be set to music - but does that make them a "song"?
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zero

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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 07:33:41 PM »
Conversely, very few songs are poetry. "I wanna hold your hand" would not be published in an anthology of English Poems, I wouldn't think.

I doubt anyone would set Milton to music, except, maybe as an opera.

And setting poetry to music, does it make it a song? It depends on the poem. The Star Spangled Banner is a poem set to music and it works well enough as a song. Just a bit difficult to sing, aye?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 07:36:32 PM by zero »

Marrianna

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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2015, 08:13:21 PM »
Someone gave me a poem he had written and asked me if I could set it to music. Once I had done this, I have always thought of it as a song because I could sing it. It wouldn't be one for the pop charts ;D but there is a place for it in the Katherine Jenkins, Lesley Garrett, Bryn Turville, Aled Jones style. Singers with a good range, vocally, could sing it and so it must be a song IMHO but started off as a poem.

I have read poems which would be impossible for me to set to music but usually because the meter and rhyming haven't worked. They would have to be 'tailored' first.

Poems have an advantage of being read and not necessarily to be put to music but if they are, the words have a new profile. As Zero says, there are some lyrics which would not lend themselves to poetry.

 :)




Sing4me88

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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2015, 09:06:01 PM »

Poems have an advantage of being read and not necessarily to be put to music but if they are, the words have a new profile. As Zero says, there are some lyrics which would not lend themselves to poetry.



Must admit I had a bit of an LOL at the thought of some of the repetitive catchy dross I write being passed off as poetry :0