[chrislong170273]

after posting for a few weeks now, I was just wondering, there doesn't seem to be much talk about harmony here, any reasons?
Do people see harmony as secondary to other things? 

Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk
@ChrisLongCOMP

[Ramshackles]

All of our songs have harmony. Many are built around 3 or 4 part harmonies. A song we are working on now is a harmony-fest, heres an export of where we are so far:
http://snd.sc/q2jDqh

But discuss it, there has to be something to discuss about it...??

[chrislong170273]

ah, you are talking about harmonies? rather than harmony?
I meant in the broader sense, i.e. key, scales, chord progressions etc
i'll have a listen later though, time for bed now :-)

[Mr.Chainsaw]

I honestly have no idea how harmonies work.

Do you just sing an octave higher, following the melody?

I'd love to know more

Peter

[Ramshackles]

ah, you are talking about harmonies? rather than harmony?
I meant in the broader sense, i.e. key, scales, chord progressions etc
i'll have a listen later though, time for bed now :-)

so..you want to talk about the general use of...multiple pitches. Sure, but it's pretty broad - what about it?
I guess seen as everyone uses harmony, even if they aren't aware, they dont have much to say about it.
One of the most difficult (yet musically pleasing) aspects for me is pulling off clever modulations (changing the key). I'm not just talking about obvious things such as shifting the chorus up a tone.
Managing seamless modulations that sound 'natural' is always difficult for me, but really opens up new directions for the music if you can pull it off.

[tone]

Harmony is one of my favourite parts of the song-writing process - nice one Chris for starting a topic on this.

You're right, we don't tend to discuss this too much on the forum, I think in part because it requires some degree of theory to talk about in depth.

I do love to create chord sequences with chromatic paths through them, although it's hard to find original ways to do it sometimes. Discovering the diminished did more for my songwriting than pretty much anything, so much so that I can barely finish a song without using one. But damn, they sound good when you get them right! For me, a great melody is as much about the harmony that supports it as the tune itself. Listening to classical music really opens your eyes in this respect - hearing how inversions and extensions can really add energy and feel to otherwise quite simple sequences is amazing.

But I would say my knowledge of harmony is one of the things I'm always looking to improve. I have Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony on my shelf somewhere, but it's damn hard to read...

Agree with Ramshackles - achieving seamless modulations can really open a song up. I don't do this as often as I would maybe like to, but it's great for instrumental sections and such like.

[Mr.Chainsaw]

Okay, okay...enough speaking tongues 

Could someone lay down for me how harmonies work?

I understand you're basically making a chord with multiple vocals...right?

So some one goes "la" in A, another in C and another "la" in E, you get a "la" in Am? So then if you chord progression is Am C G, your harmonies need to match the chords...right?

Peter

[tone]

Okay, okay...enough speaking tongues  

Could someone lay down for me how harmonies work?

I understand you're basically making a chord with multiple vocals...right?

So some one goes "la" in A, another in C and another "la" in E, you get a "la" in Am? So then if you chord progression is Am C G, your harmonies need to match the chords...right?

Peter

You're mistaking harmony as a part of music with vocal harmonies which are basically as you describe. (Although I'd say at this point some of the most interesting vocal harmonies are the ones that extend the chords they're sung over, so that occasionally you'll hear a 2nd, 7th, 13th etc)
Harmony can be defined as:

The combination of simultaneously sounded musical notes to produce chords and chord progressions with a pleasing effect.

In other words, the music you create to support your melody. I'd also scratch out the 'to pleasing effect' part of that definition. Most people prefer pleasing harmonies, but we need discord (or dissonance) to get the full dynamic range of music. Listen to any contemporary classical stuff and you'll hear plenty of this. It can be extremely beautiful in the right hands (Arvo Part being my favourite)

[Mr.Chainsaw]

Oookaaaayyy....

I guess seen as everyone uses harmony, even if they aren't aware, they dont have much to say about it.

Think you've hit the nail on there. I may not understand what I hear or play in an intellectual way, but I certainly feel whether its right or wrong. That's probably why no one discusses it Chris!

Peter

[chrislong170273]

cool, at least there's a thread about it now, and as it has been the most important aspect of music driving musical revolutions over tha past 600 years, seems strange that some songwriters give it little serious thought other than this chord sounds nice, or that chord sounds nice..

As tone says, harmonic theory is not concerned with vocal harmonies (although it is related). How a vocal harmony moves through the chords is known as voice leading. Also, as tone says, extending basic triads beyonf the normal 1,3,5 can really enrich not only the sound of the music but also how you write. Try singing on a B with a C major chord (Cmaj7th).

harmonic theory is concerned with chords, and how they progress, and underpins melody and structure.

Yes, you can do all this by ear, as songwriters have done for decades, but you will be suprised how many of the 'master' songwriters have a working knowledge of this. Some styles such as Jazz rely on complex harmonic progressions.

Ramshackles, what would help you would be 'pivot chords', i.e. a sequence of chords that belong to the original key and the target key. Also an understabding of ii V I progressions can help create interesting modulations. I had a complex one worked out for a bridge I'm working on in that song I posted, but when hearing it back we've gone with a three chord trick, sometimes the style dictates the harmonic progressions required.

And tone, yes, once you get those diminished chords under your belt it opens up a whole new harmonic universe, and ways of modulations, coupled with ii V I progressions, the sky is the limit!

Chainsaw, for some styles, three chords is all it takes!

anyway, just thought I'd open it up, be nice to see discussions on chord progressions, key changes, etc

CHris
www.chrislong.me.uk
@ChrisLongCOMP

[Mr.Chainsaw]

I'd be interested in learning more about this. Could you recommend some books about it?

I've got an app on this phone that tells you the name of any chord you put onto a fret board. Most of the time I'm just tapping away to try and make it cry, but I do get curious what an Aug or sus etc actually means.

Cheers!

Peter

[Ramshackles]

Augmented/suspended.
Augmented is a chord whose top note is 'augmented' - pushed up. Like an augemented triad or augmented fifth.
Suspended is a chord where you have put in a second or perfect fourth (and sometimes leave out the third aswell).

Books not necessary!

[chrislong170273]

Hi Peter,

understanding what a 'diminished' chord is one step, the real key to harmony is understanding chords in context, i.e. in relation to the next and preceeding chord, as well as in context with the chord progression of that section, and the structure as a whole. I have a dig around for some book titles, but once you have a few concepts under your belt you can apply them however you want. Some styles rely on simple harmony, for example, folk, (think Woodie Gutheris usually uses only chord I and V) SOME pop songs, blues etc. some rock, soul, although all of these have particular harmonic progressions that are key to them sounding the way they do.

But, to answer your question, you need to understand intervals, you mentioned 'octave'? so i assume you know that is the distance of 8 notes (8 note names that is: C D E F G A B C)

so dim, aug, maj, minor chords all rely on the interval of a 3rd. But there are two type of third, a major third (distance of 4 semitones) and a minor third (distance of three semitones). So C - E is a major third, whilst C - Eb is a minor third (Both called thirds because there are three letter names between them, C (D) E.

So a triad is comprised of two intervals of a third, on top of each other, it is the type of third that gives the chord it's characteristic sound

MAJOR           MINOR    DIMINISHED    AUGMENTED
min 3rd          maj 3rd      min 3rd          maj 3rd 
maj 3rd          min 3rd      min 3rd          maj 3rd

so diminished is so called because of the two smaller 3rds (minor) and augmented because of the two major thirds (bigger)

BUUUUT, all of this is just theory, it is understanding how to place chords into context that is the key!! Or you can just do it by ear, depending on the style  hope that helps

Chris

[Mr.Chainsaw]

In an E minor chord in guitar you play E B E G B E, where G is the minor 3rd. So where's this major third you mentioned? The rest of the notes are 5ths and octaves/roots as far as I can see.

Also, keeping with E, how would you then change the chord to a sus or Aug?

Cheers guys

Peter

[Kafla]

Peter

I am nowhere near as technical as any of these guys but I have a suggestion for you

I was always under the impression that augmented/suspended chords are used to take you between 2 chords - as a transition

Look up how to play a few on guitar dictionaries and thrown them into your songs even for 1 bar instead of hanging on the chord you are on, or as an intro to a new section - sometimes the difference can be amazing

I have no idea about the theory behind this but I would urge you just to try it then if you really want to understand it go for it

Hope this makes sense and has not dumbed it down to much for the experts (whose time and expertise is greatly appreciated )