[chrislong170273]

Just listening to neil diamond in the radio
Talking about rewriting a song for 4 months, working on it day in day out

Anyone else work like this?

Just thought it would spark a discussion

Personally I do. I listen to a track in the car about 40 times a day, on repeat, after that the problems stick out. The track I posted last has gone through about 10 different versions since then. Not saying it will end up a good song, but I think reworking is one of the most vital skills to learn as a composer. Think there is a school of thought where immediate 'inspired' songs are the best, but think in reality this very rarely happens...

Just thoughts

Chris

[tone]

I have a foot in both camps. There are songs I've written where I've painstakingly gone over every detail over a period of weeks, and other songs which I've churned out in 30 minutes.

When it comes to lyrics, I'm definitely a proponent of the school of rewrites and edits. My first draft of lyrics is invariably second rate with only a handful of lines that make it to the finished song.

Musically I tend to have an idea that becomes a finished song in pretty much its raw state. I'll spend time on phrasing and the odd passing chord or mid section, but the main motifs do tend to be spur-of-the-moment jobs.

But having said that, I will tend to play a song to myself a good 50 or so times during the writing process. There's a process of letting it settle in, and like Chris says, giving the sticking points a chance to make themselves heard.

[Ramshackles]

I'm in both camps aswell. The one I entered in the christmas song comp came pretty much complete - written and recorded in a day.
Most of the time though, I'll be playing and modifying a tune for weeks before recording it. I dont often change much once it's recorded (as recording is when money starts to play a role), but I will spend ages writing out the parts, changing them, going through loads of lyric combinations.

What happens most often is that - in terms of the music - a finished song is often a kind of amalgamation of a number of songs or song pieces. The lyrics will either be changed to be more coherent, or the music adapted to them slightly, a mix of both, or there was no lyrics to begin with

What I have found (at least to me) is that the time spent on the song bears no relation to the quality of the finished piece. Im speaking in musical terms, not recording quality etc. Some songs just take longer to get them where you want them to go.

[Schavuitje]

hmmm it is an interesting conversation. When I think about the whole processes I go through I guess it is kind of simillar.
I don't finish the writing of the song before I record though. I know this might sound a bit wierd but as soon as
an idea forms I start to record... Whether it be the chords on guitar or keyboard for a verse or whatever. Once I have laid that down
I can start adding things, vocal melodies, more guitar, bass or whatever. That often leads me to where the rest of the song might go.
The idea can be done in just a few minutes but then the rest of the song and the building process can indeed take me many weeks or even
months.
In the mean time I usually throw it on a disc to listen to in the car. Listening to it over a longer time period allows me to hear things that I
realise are worng or sometimes will give me new idea's of what I could add to it OR take away.
I tend to add layer after layer of instruments, vocals etc so experiment with many different melodies. At the end I have a piece that I can reduce (get rid of
all those melodies and instruments that don't fit or no longer match the feel of the song.

I saw Eric Clapton talking about this. He said that when he was in the studio listening toi George Harrison writing and recording "Wah Wah", that Harrison
painstakingly came up with a riff that had multiple guitar parts. Then he cut it back to just one riff because that's what he thought suited the song the best.
I have been given the same advice by other class musicians too. Build, build build, add more and more, try this, try that... you can always take it away, but if you don't
put it in in the first place you will never know what it COULD have been.
The trend these days is to be minimal or do things acoustically. That's fine but can become very boring.
If you only have one instrument then you are missing out on a lot of tools musically like counterpoint for instance. You can't really have much counterpoint going on
with an accoustic guitar and nothing else. Not that having counterpoint in a song is a neccessity but if you want it to remain interesting then it helps.
I'm not dissing the minimal approach and some songs suit it. But I see it as a cop-out to take that approach every time.
So to sum up. I think sometimes if you are lucky, you can write a whole song in 5 mins, but if you want to be all it can be then spending more time on it and really pushing it to full potential
is more often than not a must.
I usually find myself moving on to something new, or re-visiting an old unfinished one for a while so that when I come back to my present creation it will sound fresh to me
and I will much more easilly be able to hear what needs to be done.

[Kafla]

I listened to that as well Chris - absolute genius !

For me it's simple - the song must write itself - when I was younger I used to force a song to be finished often resulting in 2nd rate songs begun with good ideas

Now if I come up with something I just leave it until I write the next part whether that be a month or a year later - I literally have hundreds of snippets of ideas on my phone & old dictaphone

If something's not going well I stop it immediately before it's embedded

I also advocate writing in sections - not all songs come out in the one go

Now what I mean by that it to have a writing session , maybe an hour or so - don't aim to write a song - just write sections - that's sounds good as a verse, that's a chorus etc - don't worry about them matching up but you will be surprised at how many sections you can join together later to form a song - and it's great for little mid 8 parts

[Schavuitje]

I keep recordings of old songs that I don't like for that very reason Kafla, if just one part/section of it I like. Sometimes a new thing
is crying out for that older section to be added to it.

Sound advice

[Kafla]

Cheers Schavu,

The advice and discussion on here is invaluable - definitely makes you want to be better.

A lot of what you said made sense to me as well - my wife was clearing out a cupboard 4-5 weeks ago and found 4 x 90 minute cassettes full of ideas and some complete songs - it was around 10 years old - I still can't believe it.

Listening to some of these ideas with fresh ears has been unbelievable - I can't believe I discarded these ideas  

So for me it's also like a relationship - sometimes the partner is right but the timing is wrong 

[Schavuitje]

I'll tell that to me missus when I boot her out the next time :p haha
But what you are saying is absolutely right. Musicians are the worst snobs when it comes to music. I'm very guilty of it and in
truth most musicians are. That's why we try to convince other people of our taste of music. But this means we can often be very/too
harsh on ourselves too, as we strive for perfection. I did the same thing as you about a year or so ago... went through a box of old tapes
I found in the attic and found some songs and bits of stuff I had recorded almost 20 years ago. They ended up in a box because I did not value them
back then but WOW! I was too critical of my own writing and although I would never use them as they are, there are some fantastic idea's in amongst them.
Goes to prove the point you were making

[Beat Poet]

I wouldn't say endless rewriting is good for a song, it tends to chip all the edges off it.

[tone]

I wouldn't say endless rewriting is good for a song, it tends to chip all the edges off it.

Also true. Knowing when to stop is as important as knowing what can be improved.

[mihkay]

Having read the above posts, I don't think I'm much different to most, but I tent to have enthusiastic spells.

One type is where I just bang out bits with an acoustic and lyrics flow out almost ready to go. These tend to get posted as they are, raw and in one or two takes.

There are times where I just fiddle with the same idea adding things, taking things away trying to find something that catches my ear.

At other times I get almost entirely focused on getting a drum pattern or a piano on one part of one song just right, but when frustration kicks in that's when the acoustic comes out again and I noodle around for a new song.

One thing is certain, I'm never entirely happy with the product. It's never finished..... only abandoned until, I can get it just right..! 

[Schavuitje]

"It's never finished..... only abandoned until, I can get it just right..! "

Haha That's a great way of putting it They say the same about paintings... It's never finished, you just have to know when to stop :p

The good thing about music, unlike painting is that you can add layers to a song and take them away if you don't like them. I would

imagine that is nigh on impossible with paint