The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => The Bar => Topic started by: S.T.C on March 12, 2017, 08:54:58 AM
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With Ed Sheeran taking 16 of the top 20 spots, isn't it obvious what a mockery the music industry has become, the hype machine is out of control, and it results in this, if it was a herd of deer, you'd have to shoot 80% of them and re-breed.
Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....this is what happens when a small % of artists and writers get all the moonlight , all the backing....it's a farce....the youth market is so manipulated now, this chart means nothing , if it ever did. :-\
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/singles
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I remember reading that Brian Epstein bought a load of one of the Beatles army singles just to get it into the charts, so the charts have always been manipulated. But it has to be harder now than ever before to get heard above the noise, and the corporates have tight control, which is why the charts have turned to mush. We need another Indie revolution.
Mike
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The revolution has already happened. Large numbers of people no longer buy physical copies of albums. So when Ed Sheeran releases an album it doesn't fly out the shops but ends up on playlists on I-phones, pcs, tablets, etc. Each play then qualifies for the singles chart. The result is all 16 songs on the album are treated as singles.
For me it is a further example of the record industry losing control. With Ed Sheeran dominating the singles chart how can EMI find their next big pay cheque?
Brian Epstein bought loads of the Beatles' first single Love Me Do because of the demand for Tony Sheridan and the Beat Boys (the Beatles) single My Bonny (a German import) and the Beatles popularity in Liverpool. There was a feeling in the record industry that all good music came from London so the Beatles must be a con by the record shop owning manager.
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I agree with diademgrove the people in charge of the charts haven't kept up with technological advances.
Why can't it just be singles in the singles charts hm? We have an albums chart
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Just my own spur of the moment thoughts on this but somehow i don't think you be all complaining if there was a top 40 song that had your name on it, im guessing its like everything else eventually that time came when they built a motorway round it but like all great landmarks, we like to visit now and then, i read something i don't know how long back that all you need to buy is 500 to get into the top whatever, but i think that's to do with the size of the country, population.
I guess its like building up a business, you have to spend money to make money.
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I agree with diademgrove the people in charge of the charts haven't kept up with technological advances.
Why can't it just be singles in the singles charts hm? We have an albums chart
I think he has 3 of the top 5 albums as well.DOH :(
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Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....
Says who?
I have been listening to the album heavily since it has been released and it has gone from good to great the more I listen - especially on the back on Multiply and Plus
There are 5 or 6 AMAZING songs but there are no real "duff" ones IMHO
Ed Sheeran is the "real deal" and certainly paid his dues trying to make it and is as far from "manufactured" as it gets with regards his look and music
I think it is the lethal combination of the label creating the "hype" and then the artist living up to it (or even exceeding it) through amazing live performances (especially with the loop pedal and performing with other artists) and down to earth interviews
The songs tick every box - hooky, current, relatable
I feel we may actually be witnessing something that will get looked back on as an incredible run of albums/music
Regarding the charts - I agree it is a little non-relevant now as people access music in different ways but I do think it is useful for the music business to keep track of what music is "selling" - whether you agree the music is a business or not with margins so tight with streaming/illegal downloads the industry will just get more "risk averse" - which does feel like the right conditions for a "musical revolution" where something could break through - eg via social media
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Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....
I have been listening to the album heavily since it has been released and it has gone from good to great the more I listen - especially on the back on Multiply and Plus
There are 5 or 6 AMAZING songs but there are no real "duff" ones IMHO
Ed Sheeran is the "real deal" and certainly paid his dues trying to make it and is as far from Says who?"manufactured" as it gets with regards his look and music
I think it is the lethal combination of the label creating the "hype" and then the artist living up to it (or even exceeding it) through amazing live performances (especially with the loop pedal and performing with other artists) and down to earth interviews
The songs tick every box - hooky, current, relatable
I feel we may actually be witnessing something that will get looked back on as an incredible run of albums/music
Regarding the charts - I agree it is a little non-relevant now as people access music in different ways but I do think it is useful for the music business to keep track of what music is "selling" - whether you agree the music is a business or not with margins so tight with streaming/illegal downloads the industry will just get more "risk averse" - which does feel like the right conditions for a "musical revolution" where something could break through - eg via social media
Says who? Says me ;) and it's not..but i don't wish to debate it,except to say our levels of excellence have been so heavily reduced ,Ed Sheeran does seem to stand out compared to the dross out there.
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
We all know there's better out there , better than ED ,better than Taylor...but why diversify ,when you can concentrate it all into a nice manageable , manipulative package.
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We all know there's better out there , better than ED ,better than Taylor...but why diversify ,when you can concentrate it all into a nice manageable , manipulative package.
You can't have it both ways - you can't say "we all know" - it is just your opinion ;)
There could well be (and probably is) better out there - but at some point these guys stood out from the crowd and got signed on their own merits
Only time will tell how fondly the music of today is looked back on, which is the the test of a "classic" album IMHO
However, if your main point is about the charts:
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
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We all know there's better out there , better than ED ,better than Taylor...but why diversify ,when you can concentrate it all into a nice manageable , manipulative package.
You can't have it both ways - you can't say "we all know" - it is just your opinion ;)
There could well be (and probably is) better out there - but at some point these guys stood out from the crowd and got signed on their own merits
Only time will tell how fondly the music of today is looked back on, which is the the test of a "classic" album IMHO
However, if your main point is about the charts:
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
Yes , if it had of been Beyonce with 16/20 .she would have been the particular artist cited. But it's not the artists fault , they are roped into the 'game' as much as anybody else, except a handful of them are able to cash into it in a big way.
I did read on Twitter, Sony made 1.7 billion on streaming last year(need to confirm this) so , it's not all doom and gloom for them.
I listen to great artists almost daily, with much better songs than the established elite throw out, but they are good at what they do,and the army of musicians around them , creating modern pop to an undiscerning public , wanting more of the same.
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Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....
I have been listening to the album heavily since it has been released and it has gone from good to great the more I listen - especially on the back on Multiply and Plus
There are 5 or 6 AMAZING songs but there are no real "duff" ones IMHO
Ed Sheeran is the "real deal" and certainly paid his dues trying to make it and is as far from Says who?"manufactured" as it gets with regards his look and music
I think it is the lethal combination of the label creating the "hype" and then the artist living up to it (or even exceeding it) through amazing live performances (especially with the loop pedal and performing with other artists) and down to earth interviews
The songs tick every box - hooky, current, relatable
I feel we may actually be witnessing something that will get looked back on as an incredible run of albums/music
Regarding the charts - I agree it is a little non-relevant now as people access music in different ways but I do think it is useful for the music business to keep track of what music is "selling" - whether you agree the music is a business or not with margins so tight with streaming/illegal downloads the industry will just get more "risk averse" - which does feel like the right conditions for a "musical revolution" where something could break through - eg via social media
Says who? Says me ;) and it's not..but i don't wish to debate it,except to say our levels of excellence have been so heavily reduced ,Ed Sheeran does seem to stand out compared to the dross out there.
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
We all know there's better out there , better than ED ,better than Taylor...but why diversify ,when you can concentrate it all into a nice manageable , manipulative package.
If you dont want to debate it then why OP it, whatever You I or Anyone else thinks or feels when it comes to making money Music is a business it always was and always will be and like all great businesses its survival is knowing what their client wants, in this case the audience "We all know there's better out there" and we all know there is an audience for all but the suits at the top they go were the big money is but only after the likes of ED has done all the hard work, but i will include to the majority like people like us its also a very enjoyable past time, i think im enjoying this :)
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The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
[/quote]
You two sound as if you're both singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, disagree with above.
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Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....
I have been listening to the album heavily since it has been released and it has gone from good to great the more I listen - especially on the back on Multiply and Plus
There are 5 or 6 AMAZING songs but there are no real "duff" ones IMHO
Ed Sheeran is the "real deal" and certainly paid his dues trying to make it and is as far from Says who?"manufactured" as it gets with regards his look and music
I think it is the lethal combination of the label creating the "hype" and then the artist living up to it (or even exceeding it) through amazing live performances (especially with the loop pedal and performing with other artists) and down to earth interviews
The songs tick every box - hooky, current, relatable
I feel we may actually be witnessing something that will get looked back on as an incredible run of albums/music
Regarding the charts - I agree it is a little non-relevant now as people access music in different ways but I do think it is useful for the music business to keep track of what music is "selling" - whether you agree the music is a business or not with margins so tight with streaming/illegal downloads the industry will just get more "risk averse" - which does feel like the right conditions for a "musical revolution" where something could break through - eg via social media
Says who? Says me ;) and it's not..but i don't wish to debate it,except to say our levels of excellence have been so heavily reduced ,Ed Sheeran does seem to stand out compared to the dross out there.
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
We all know there's better out there , better than ED ,better than Taylor...but why diversify ,when you can concentrate it all into a nice manageable , manipulative package.
If you dont want to debate it then why OP it, whatever You I or Anyone else thinks or feels when it comes to making money Music is a business it always was and always will be and like all great businesses its survival is knowing what their client wants, in this case the audience "We all know there's better out there" and we all know there is an audience for all but the suits at the top they go were the big money is but only after the likes of ED has done all the hard work, but i will include to the majority like people like us its also a very enjoyable past time, i think im enjoying this :)
I don't want to debate the merits of E/Sn's album..as it's subjective ,to some people it's caviar ,to others Cod roe :)..yes it is a business , but it used to exploit the talented bands and artists out there....now it manipulates the mainstream with the music and the artists it want's....the way is shut and the dead keep it.
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but it used to exploit the talented bands and artists out there..
They still do or are we living on different planets :)
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Quote
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
You two sound as if you're both singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, disagree with above.[/quote]
@ OLDBUTYET
How can you disagree with this statement after acknowledging and accepting that the music industry is a "business"
The charts are their "sales figures" and the position in the charts directly correlates with success of all elements of the business (marketing, pr, artist image, quality of product etc.) so I am really confused that you think this is the "same old sh1t" and you disagree ???
What do you disagree with?
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Quote
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
You two sound as if you're both singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, disagree with above.
@ OLDBUTYET
How can you disagree with this statement after acknowledging and accepting that the music industry is a "business"
The charts are their "sales figures" and the position in the charts directly correlates with success of all elements of the business (marketing, pr, artist image, quality of product etc.) so I am really confused that you think this is the "same old sh1t" and you disagree ???
What do you disagree with?
[/quote]
Maybe im reading your post wrong but i think you just answer your own question, the charts was and still is, always a guide for their marketing sales, so charts are very important in all form of businesses
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Quote
The point of the post is , the charts mean nothing, they only help the music business to confirm that the methods and strategy they employ are working..
I couldn't agree with you more!!
You two sound as if you're both singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, disagree with above.
@ OLDBUTYET
How can you disagree with this statement after acknowledging and accepting that the music industry is a "business"
The charts are their "sales figures" and the position in the charts directly correlates with success of all elements of the business (marketing, pr, artist image, quality of product etc.) so I am really confused that you think this is the "same old sh1t" and you disagree ???
What do you disagree with?
Maybe im reading your post wrong but i think you just answer your own question, the charts was and still is, always a guide for their marketing sales, so charts are very important in all form of businesses
[/quote]
In STC post he has "the charts mean nothing" are you still saying you agree.
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Ah - I now see where the confusion is
What I think STC is saying (and I agree) is that the charts are not necessarily an indication of how "good" a song is - it is just a result of sales, which is based on the "manufactured" elements of the label - i.e. Marketing etc. etc.
However, where I disagree a bit with STC is that I think that some of the artists that do get signed (especially the ones referenced in this thread) DO merit their success and could be better than what is out there
It is all just sooooooo subjective though as many may think "Dark Side Of The Moon" is overrated (not me by the way) and Divide by Ed Sheeran is the best album ever made in the history of music
Nobody can say what is "wrong or right" - just what they like, which is what makes music and songwriting such a wonderful thing
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Ah - I now see where the confusion is
What I think STC is saying (and I agree) is that the charts are not necessarily an indication of how "good" a song is - it is just a result of sales, which is based on the "manufactured" elements of the label - i.e. Marketing etc. etc.
However, where I disagree a bit with STC is that I think that some of the artists that do get signed (especially the ones referenced in this thread) DO merit their success and could be better than what is out there
It is all just sooooooo subjective though as many may think "Dark Side Of The Moon" is overrated (not me by the way) and Divide by Ed Sheeran is the best album ever made in the history of music
Nobody can say what is "wrong or right" - just what they like, which is what makes music and songwriting such a wonderful thing
The charts no longer serve the purpose they were created for in many ways....how can 16 songs from 1 artist dominate...? this shouldn't happen , but like someone said , they now use data from streaming sites, and from these , artists like ED /S are dominant.
@Boydie , you know i'm not anti-pop music , and i recognise the talent that exists in the mainstream artists, they're not without merit, but in other era's i would suggest, they would be passed on..but thats my opinion.
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Ah - I now see where the confusion is
What I think STC is saying (and I agree) is that the charts are not necessarily an indication of how "good" a song is - it is just a result of sales, which is based on the "manufactured" elements of the label - i.e. Marketing etc. etc.
However, where I disagree a bit with STC is that I think that some of the artists that do get signed (especially the ones referenced in this thread) DO merit their success and could be better than what is out there
It is all just sooooooo subjective though as many may think "Dark Side Of The Moon" is overrated (not me by the way) and Divide by Ed Sheeran is the best album ever made in the history of music
Nobody can say what is "wrong or right" - just what they like, which is what makes music and songwriting such a wonderful thing
My apologies to you both, and as for you two singing from the same old sh1t hymn sheet, i have to admit you were both sounding pretty good, you two should record something together :)
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Here's an outside the box thought - might it be that Ed Sheeran IS a damn good songwriter...
The guy is shit hot pop and I agree with what Boydie has said in his earlier posts. He has consistently produced the goods as an artist and a writer. I think it's a case of musical snobbery to suggest he writes for the undiscerning listener. A Team and Thinking Out Loud are hardly simplistic, trashy modern pop. They are quite nuanced and have their own sophistry in ways. The guy is inarguably gifted when it comes to writing commercial pop hooks.
Two examples suffice; 'If you like the way you look that much you should go and love yourself'. What a pop hook! It's text book yet original. Anyone who says they don't wish they'd come up with a hook like this and made the £ from it that Ed has is simply lying.
'I'm in love with the shape of you, we push and pull like a magnet do'. Again pure genius in terms of a modern pop love song. There's a million ways it could have been said and a million ways it wouldn't have worked yet he's managed to come up with the goods again. Ed has the ability to write simple pop lyrics that pack a punch and connect with people without trying too hard or without indulging in arty farty bullshit that tries to make him sound so much more cleverer than the listener. There's a lesson to be learnt from him in terms of writing commercial songs.
I guess I should be upfront and say I'm not a huge Ed fan but I still recognise how good his songwriting is and how on fleek he is in today's market. Whether it floats my own personal boat is neither here nor there as there's plenty of punters out there floating Ed's boat.
Sometimes I think folk on the forum would be better throwing away the sour grapes attitude over successful modern writers and instead try to learn from them. How can anyone with ambitions of making £ in the modern market and industry seriously do so while criticising those that have demonstrably achieved this already and constantly ignoring how they've done so.
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If we're going to call Ed Sheeran a genius, (he's good, but not a genius IMHO) then I think we have to also notice that he doesn't solo write all his material. Thinking out loud is one of the songs mentioned here - I saw a TV clip about the co-writer of that song and many others.
It seems to me he has a foot in both camps. He's undoubtedly a talented songwriter in his own right, but I think his output is carefully managed and 'nudged' by those with the most to gain from his talent. Personally I think it's a good song, but it could have been recorded/ performed by anyone. Westlife even?! I would prefer to hear a bit more personality in the writing, but that's just my preference. It's not the way hits are made any more.
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I do get the point of the charts for the Marketing men and the Finance men. It must help a lot if one is able to write "chart topper" on a poster or "52 weeks at number one" and for the accountants it must help to inform them next time they're asked to sign off on a promo-budget or a video shoot. It's no doubt great for the artist, too. Because, whatever we think about the current state of the charts, we have a half of century of history during which getting in the charts was the key thing for a pop band. The fact that the playing field is at a very different level now to what it was years ago is almost irrelevant. To have more songs in the top ten than the Beatles ever did ain't going to happen to many artists.
But... to the rest of us, does it matter?
Maybe it does? When I was a kid I loved it when Motorhead were on TOTP - it was two fingers up to all the pop and disco that was prevalent at the time. Punk was a bit the same. Maybe there are kids out there right now who love it when their favourite band gets into the chart.
But I have to say the charts have been irrelevant to me since, well since Motorhead were on TOTP. I pretty much realised that week that what I like and what the Radio One playlist people liked were very different and never the twain shall meet.
We had a thread on here last year about how the new charts methodology (i.e. moving from including just hard copies to downloads and now streaming) is worrying the industry and making it harder and harder for new bands to get a look in. This week's situation shows those concerns being realised. But these concerns were all around new pop bands. For those of us into more roots music we've always looked on at such situations and discussions with a wry smile, some wishful thinking, and a little envy, but have simply gone out and bought the CDs we liked regardless of whether a radio DJ tells us we should or not.
Ed Sheeran. I gather he's very good. The under-thirties in the household say he's fantastic. Best live show ever. New album is brill. Etc etc. I don't know anything by him - although I did click on a link just now to hear what his version of Galway Girl was like. Turned out not to be Steve Earle's song (there was me assuming...) and it was not as good as Steve's Earle's song (IMHO) but it wasn't bad. Nothing I'd swap out my Tom Waits, Buster Jones, or Stefan Grossman CDs in the car for, though.
I do find it odd that the Singles chart can contain songs that aren't singles. So maybe it's time to rebrand the chart as simply "Most Popular Song". We ought to get rid of all the other Radio One charts at the same time, too - the R'N'B and the Dance and the Indie and the Asian... I mean what's the point of these? Or, why not go the other way, the "Acoustic Song Written By Someone Called Derek Rutherford" chart? I might get ten weeks at number one in that chart and I could then tell my marketing man to put it on my posters - might get more than one man and a dog coming to my next gig...
No charts, work for a few, but have little relevance or truth for the rest of us. :P
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I wasnt aware there was still any 'single' singles chart... ;D
The 'official charts company' has always been of zero interest to me and I suspect the majority of people on this forum. Top sellers always have generally been middle of the road, least-offensive-to-a-majority coffee-table fodder.
Nowadays there are 1000 websites, blogs, youtubers, soundclouders each publishing their own 'charts' of what is popular/cool (according to them)/upcoming. We are spoilt for choice.
I've not looked at an 'official' chart since I first discovered the hype machine :D
The difficulty for musicians now is not making music accessible to potential fans, but making sure they discover you among to zillions of stuff out there.
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I've just contributed to the chart positions for Ed Sheeren Shape of You (reminds me of Eagle Eye Cherry), The Jesus and Mary Chain Snakedriver and Maren Morris 80s Mercedes. I doubt whether it will lead to a huge boost for the career of the Jesus and Mary Chain but it is likely, along with millions of other plays, boost the chart positions of the other two. It didn't cost me a penny and reminds me of radio hits of the 70s and 80s. Songs that got lots of radio plays but nobody bought them.
I may put some Jesus and Mary Chain cds on my Christmas list but Ed Sheeren and Maren Morris will remain occasional youtube plays.
You could argue that youtube and Spotify is different because of the advertising revenue. Maybe, but radio the US has always attracted advertising revenue. The difference is that Spotify allows you to be your own DJ and play what you like.
Not a great way to identify new talent and the next big thing. In the meantime I'll rely on word of mouth to hear new music and decide what I'll buy and what I'll listen to for free.
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Here's an outside the box thought - might it be that Ed Sheeran IS a damn good songwriter...
The guy is shit hot pop and I agree with what Boydie has said in his earlier posts. He has consistently produced the goods as an artist and a writer. I think it's a case of musical snobbery to suggest he writes for the undiscerning listener. A Team and Thinking Out Loud are hardly simplistic, trashy modern pop. They are quite nuanced and have their own sophistry in ways. The guy is inarguably gifted when it comes to writing commercial pop hooks.
Two examples suffice; 'If you like the way you look that much you should go and love yourself'. What a pop hook! It's text book yet original. Anyone who says they don't wish they'd come up with a hook like this and made the £ from it that Ed has is simply lying.
Sheeren writes his songs with half a dozen other people!!
'I'm in love with the shape of you, we push and pull like a magnet do'. Again pure genius in terms of a modern pop love song. There's a million ways it could have been said and a million ways it wouldn't have worked yet he's managed to come up with the goods again. Ed has the ability to write simple pop lyrics that pack a punch and connect with people without trying too hard or without indulging in arty farty bullshit that tries to make him sound so much more cleverer than the listener. There's a lesson to be learnt from him in terms of writing commercial songs.
I guess I should be upfront and say I'm not a huge Ed fan but I still recognise how good his songwriting is and how on fleek he is in today's market. Whether it floats my own personal boat is neither here nor there as there's plenty of punters out there floating Ed's boat.
Sometimes I think folk on the forum would be better throwing away the sour grapes attitude over successful modern writers and instead try to learn from them. How can anyone with ambitions of making £ in the modern market and industry seriously do so while criticising those that have demonstrably achieved this already and constantly ignoring how they've done so.
Sheeran writes his songs with half a dozen other writers...
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Sheeran writes his songs with half a dozen other writers...
And that makes him not a good writer? Does it also mean he's not consistently able to write chart hits?
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Also it's simply not true that he writes all his songs with half a dozen other writers. Most of his bigger songs do have co-writers but it's one or two co-writers at most per song and it's usually a different co-writer in each case - Cold Water being a notable exception as there's about eight credited writers on there. Otherwise Ed and commercial success seem to be the two constants in his other songs....
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And that makes him not a good writer? Does it also mean he's not consistently able to write chart hits?
It doesn't make him a bad writer. But it does probably mean he's consistently unable to write chart hits without collaborating - otherwise he'd be the sole writer on those tunes.
I just think it's worth noting as it seems to me co-writes are the norm for 'songwriters' these days. Every songwriter with a tune in the charts seems to have one or more co-writers lurking behind the scenes. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view. But I do think it warrants some hesitation before applying the label 'genius' to the wee ginger fella...
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I just think it's worth noting as it seems to me co-writes are the norm for 'songwriters' these days. Everyone songwriter with a tune in the charts seems to have one or more co-writers lurking behind the scenes. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your point of view.
From what I gather some of the bigger hits of recent times like Wrecking Ball (25 credited writers!?!) aren't even written by a songwriting team anymore but by songwriting teams. Labels have these teams of proven chart hit writers busying away in different rooms coming up with various hooks etc. They take the best from each offering, carefully glue it all together and it becomes a monster hit. All the 'leftover' are also cobbled together and become hits too apparently.
I'm a huge fan of collabs (possibly because of my own very limited offerings) so this idea of teams really appeals to me. I don't think writing in a team or teams diminishes anyones ability or credo at all. Is Lennon a lesser of a songwriting genius because he wrote many of his hits with McCartney and vice versa? What about Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel? Or Elton and Bernie? Also, I'm pretty certain you have to cut the mustard to a) become and b) remain part of the golden circle of chart hit writers. Not just anyone can rock up more to the pity....
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I hate to break it to you bro, but Art Garfunkel can't write a christmas card... Paul Simon wrote all the songs for S&G. Garfunkel is credited on a few for arrangement contributions I think but that's about it.
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Ed Sheeran is not a genius songwriter ,i think he would be embarrassed by such an accolade , but what he is good at ,or should i say wise enough to spot ,is the appeal of songs that explore everyday experiences ,and he expresses them in a way, that young people around the world can relate to.
Also he's not a shallow pretty boy, in fact i think he's slowly going blind? looks like a lumberjack deprived of a good shower for several weeks , as a style that's non threatening...and on top of all that comes across as very personable ,humble and a good laugh...SO, he's uber marketable,and thus we see him and his label reaping what must be enormous rewards.
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oh well..
i must say i preferred mr ed, the talking horse.
cracking moon out there tonight people..
get out your banjos ..
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STC, are you still mouthing off or do you have lyrics to post, iffing sh1t man they lost some some good here 8)
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Ed Sheeran is not a genius songwriter ,i think he would be embarrassed by such an accolade , but what he is good at ,or should i say wise enough to spot ,is the appeal of songs that explore everyday experiences ,and he expresses them in a way, that young people around the world can relate to.
Also he's not a shallow pretty boy, in fact i think he's slowly going blind? looks like a lumberjack deprived of a good shower for several weeks , as a style that's non threatening...and on top of all that comes across as very personable ,humble and a good laugh...SO, he's uber marketable,and thus we see him and his label reaping what must be enormous rewards.
Does any of this mean the guy hasn't got an unbelievable amount of talent? He quite simply could not have achieved the success he has as a writer and an artist if he wasn't talented. Marketability is one thing but there has to be a substance as a writer and an artist there to market in the first place and IMHO Ed is pretty good material in that respect.
At times it feels like you're inferring that getting 16 out of 20 spots in the charts is not an impressive feat and that it's quite easy to pull off. In reality it's not of course. If I were Ed reading your posts I'd pose the simple question 'if it's so easy why haven't you managed 1 top 20 hit never mind having 16 simultaneously?'.
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I hate to break it to you bro, but Art Garfunkel can't write a christmas card... Paul Simon wrote all the songs for S&G. Garfunkel is credited on a few for arrangement contributions I think but that's about it.
Ah touche-stilldoen't detract from the other two examples though.... :D
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Ah touche-stilldoen't detract from the other two examples though.... :D
While it pains me further to get all pedantic on your ass, I don't think Elton and Bernie is a fair comparison in this instance either. Since they each take the lyrics and music separately and individually, they're kind of like one songwriter in effect. They don't sit together and discuss which hook to repeat, or which line is going to appeal most to girls aged 12-17. The process is quite different as I see it.
What I'm trying to say in this thread (not very eloquently so far) is that these super-successful pop songs seem to tend to be written in quite a contrived way. The song's main purpose is to earn money, not to express what the performer is feeling. I'm not saying these songs don't express anything or that Ed Sheeran performs without feeling. Just saying there's a formulaic approach at work here that delivers hits, especially once an act is already successful, and it's quite cynical and transparent. Have you noticed it's not really my cup of tea either ;)
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What I'm trying to say in this thread (not very eloquently so far) is that these super-successful pop songs seem to tend to be written in quite a contrived way. The song's main purpose is to earn money, not to express what the performer is feeling. I'm not saying these songs don't express anything or that Ed Sheeran performs without feeling. Just saying there's a formulaic approach at work here that delivers hits, especially once an act is already successful, and it's quite cynical and transparent. Have you noticed it's not really my cup of tea either Wink
But, what if the way to earn money is to devise a formula that expresses what the writer is feeling in a way that connects with the audience?
I am firmly in "pop fan" camp as I am fascinated by all of the tools/devices used to create the hooks, message, emotion etc. that will "connect" with listeners enough for them to spend money or take time listening to the songs
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@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.
@Sing4me88 , i'm resisting your snide digs , doesn't bother me what you say , you're uninformed to say the least . I suggest you do more research on how the music game works and modify your point of view, if you can that is. Everything takes several years ,for anything to happen.......and then nothing might.......coming out with these 'you're only jealous ,cos you're not rich and famous' comments, shows me you have 'playground' mentality, apart from breathtaking ignorance.
As far as my PRO music career is going, and yes i can say that, i do have a proper CD , which i continue to market.....and it's a tough thing to be doing. i spend time on social media ,building contacts/relationships up .....inc the odd interchange with celebrity artists...like LeAnn rimes ,,you never know what will come of this along the line...
Also i'm waiting for a music only file to across from Nashville ,so one of the ex-x-Factor contestants can cover it..then if it's good enough ..see about some promotion...
Funnily enough, i even have an Ed Sheeran inspired song, that i'm working on..sang it on guitar even ( chords so far @G-CAAD9-D-DSUS4-EM7) , which i'm approaching a few peeps about..might use some session musicians off Fiverr to work on it to demo standard....er what else....actually that's enough for the moment. ;)
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But, what if the way to earn money is to devise a formula that expresses what the writer is feeling in a way that connects with the audience?
I am firmly in "pop fan" camp as I am fascinated by all of the tools/devices used to create the hooks, message, emotion etc. that will "connect" with listeners enough for them to spend money or take time listening to the songs
That is the way to earn money, absolutely. I'm not saying that those songs don't communicate with the listeners - they clearly do, otherwise nobody would listen to them. But, the formulaic approach tends to produce a slightly homogenised narrative in my opinion. Often I'm not convinced by the finished song that what's being expressed is the genuine emotional impulse of the writer. What I so often (not always) hear is a 'universal' message that is designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Usually they're under 20, and I think the reason for this might be that younger people have fewer unique and nuanced experiences which may conflict with the messages in pop music. Also, they're invariably in the throes of emotional tides, making them very susceptible to love/ heartbreak/ partying songs.
Hell, maybe I'm just old. :p
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@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.
I think i lit a fuse again with you, second time imaging that, oh and by the way i wasn't having a dig at Boydie i was having a conversation with him using what we all use here even you its call the written word, sorry if it came across the wrong way, again for both of you and one other thing, i have huge respect for lyric writers been one myself so stop trying to prove something to yourself.
You're writing with Neil C, sounds good already, okay ill ignore your boyist tantrums so you may continue now.
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But, what if the way to earn money is to devise a formula that expresses what the writer is feeling in a way that connects with the audience?
I am firmly in "pop fan" camp as I am fascinated by all of the tools/devices used to create the hooks, message, emotion etc. that will "connect" with listeners enough for them to spend money or take time listening to the songs
That is the way to earn money, absolutely. I'm not saying that those songs don't communicate with the listeners - they clearly do, otherwise nobody would listen to them. But, the formulaic approach tends to produce a slightly homogenised narrative in my opinion. Often I'm not convinced by the finished song that what's being expressed is the genuine emotional impulse of the writer. What I so often (not always) hear is a 'universal' message that is designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Usually they're under 20, and I think the reason for this might be that younger people have fewer unique and nuanced experiences which may conflict with the messages in pop music. Also, they're invariably in the throes of emotional tides, making them very susceptible to love/ heartbreak/ partying songs.
Hell, maybe I'm just old. :p
You're correct TONE....it's heavily formulated ,to create maximum returns.....we see it all over the movie industry as well.....very few non CGI/marvel / 2.3,4 or 5 in the series ,spinoffs of successful films etc ...at the old multiplex :)
They don't need to look for the 'new' ..same with the mainstream music industry , why create uncertainty for themselves...just use the same old 10/11 top writers, to do what they do so well , creating songs for the same old stars , market them to death, arena tours, Youtube vids, Radio....poor kids don't stand a chance.
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@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.
I think i lit a fuse again with you, second time imaging that, oh and by the way i wasn't having a dig at Boydie i was having a conversation with him using what we all use here even you its call the written word, sorry if it came across the wrong way, again for both of you and one other thing, i have huge respect for lyric writers been one myself so stop trying to prove something to yourself.
You're writing with Neil C, sounds good already, okay ill ignore your boyist tantrums so you may continue now.
I've known a few people like you in my time...unstable , alcoholics for the most part....guess it's time to stop feeding the trolls.
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@oldbutyet -why don't you show some lyrics? as to mouthing off ,bit rich coming from you , i've rejected your puerile attempts to rope me into a verbal scrap, the same way you've had a dig at Boydie...my problem is the lyrics i write these days are not for public display, unless i choose to write something esp for the forum in a style i don't intend to pitch to anyone, for exp , some for Neil.C.
I think i lit a fuse again with you, second time imaging that, oh and by the way i wasn't having a dig at Boydie i was having a conversation with him using what we all use here even you its call the written word, sorry if it came across the wrong way, again for both of you and one other thing, i have huge respect for lyric writers been one myself so stop trying to prove something to yourself.
You're writing with Neil C, sounds good already, okay ill ignore your boyist tantrums so you may continue now.
I've known a few people like you in my time...unstable , alcoholics for the most part....guess it's time to stop feeding the trolls.
Im LOL ;D
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@Sing4me88 , i'm resisting your snide digs , doesn't bother me what you say , you're uninformed to say the least . I suggest you do more research on how the music game works and modify your point of view, if you can that is. Everything takes several years ,for anything to happen.......and then nothing might.......coming out with these 'you're only jealous ,cos you're not rich and famous' comments, shows me you have 'playground' mentality, apart from breathtaking ignorance.
As far as my PRO music career is going, and yes i can say that, i do have a proper CD , which i continue to market.....and it's a tough thing to be doing. i spend time on social media ,building contacts/relationships up .....inc the odd interchange with celebrity artists...like LeAnn rimes ,,you never know what will come of this along the line...
Also i'm waiting for a music only file to across from Nashville ,so one of the ex-x-Factor contestants can cover it..then if it's good enough ..see about some promotion...
Funnily enough, i even have an Ed Sheeran inspired song, that i'm working on..sang it on guitar even ( chords so far @G-CAAD9-D-DSUS4-EM7) , which i'm approaching a few peeps about..might use some session musicians off Fiverr to work on it to demo standard....er what else....actually that's enough for the moment. ;)
1) I didn't have any 'snide dig' at you and it's unfortunate that you would take it as such.
2) Can anyone who has written a CD and/or performs for pay call themselves a 'PRO' now?
3) I may not be as ill-informed about the 'industry' as you think. Is it that I haven't made any inroads into the 'industry' or towards commercial success with new collabs, co-writes and networking yet or is it that I don't feel the need to log them on here or to try and flaunt them about as some sign of having songwriter gravitas?
4) Have I ever said commercial success isn't hard or that it doesn't take years to accumulate?
5) Even if you had Ed's marketing team behind you and your CD IMHO it still wouldn't be in the same stratosphere in terms of appeal or artistic merit
6) Have you ever thought you might have to modify your own point of view? Saying that you are just as good as, if not better, that ED Sheeran, Taylor Swift and Gary Barlow without having anything of substance to show is ill-advised to say the least. You say you are interested in trying to achieve commercial success. Would it not be more worthwhile studying the craft of those who have already attained it instead of adopting a know-it-all complex and attributing their success to marketing? How can you possibly progress towards your goal on the basis of insisting you are better than established hit writers and dismissing their success rather than trying to glean from what they've done and how they do it?
7) As I said before it is one thing writing a song that has some sort of Ed Sheeran or Taylor Swift vibe to it but quite another to write one that they'd actually sing or that people could actually imagine them singing.
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@Sing4me88 , i'm resisting your snide digs , doesn't bother me what you say , you're uninformed to say the least . I suggest you do more research on how the music game works and modify your point of view, if you can that is. Everything takes several years ,for anything to happen.......and then nothing might.......coming out with these 'you're only jealous ,cos you're not rich and famous' comments, shows me you have 'playground' mentality, apart from breathtaking ignorance.
As far as my PRO music career is going, and yes i can say that, i do have a proper CD , which i continue to market.....and it's a tough thing to be doing. i spend time on social media ,building contacts/relationships up .....inc the odd interchange with celebrity artists...like LeAnn rimes ,,you never know what will come of this along the line...
Also i'm waiting for a music only file to across from Nashville ,so one of the ex-x-Factor contestants can cover it..then if it's good enough ..see about some promotion...
Funnily enough, i even have an Ed Sheeran inspired song, that i'm working on..sang it on guitar even ( chords so far @G-CAAD9-D-DSUS4-EM7) , which i'm approaching a few peeps about..might use some session musicians off Fiverr to work on it to demo standard....er what else....actually that's enough for the moment. ;)
1) I didn't have any 'snide dig' at you and it's unfortunate that you would take it as such.
2) Can anyone who has written a CD and/or performs for pay call themselves a 'PRO' now?
3) I may not be as ill-informed about the 'industry' as you think. Is it that I haven't made any inroads into the 'industry' or towards commercial success with new collabs, co-writes and networking yet or is it that I don't feel the need to log them on here or to try and flaunt them about as some sign of having songwriter gravitas?
4) Have I ever said commercial success isn't hard or that it doesn't take years to accumulate?
5) Even if you had Ed's marketing team behind you and your CD IMHO it still wouldn't be in the same stratosphere in terms of appeal or artistic merit
6) Have you ever thought you might have to modify your own point of view? Saying that you are just as good as, if not better, that ED Sheeran, Taylor Swift and Gary Barlow without having anything of substance to show is ill-advised to say the least. You say you are interested in trying to achieve commercial success. Would it not be more worthwhile studying the racft of those who have already attained it instead of adopting a know-it-all complex and attributing their success to marketing? How can you possiby progress towards your goal on the basis of insisting youare better that established hit writers and dismissing their success rather than trying to glean from what they've done and how they do it?
7) As I said before it is one think writing a song that has some sort of Ed Sheeran or Taylor Swift vibe to it but quite another to write one that they'd actually sing or that people could actually imagine them singing.
1) er yes you do..but i understand why.
2)Yes, they can...again a greater in depth knowledge would prevent you from making that statement, if you start publishing/producing/selling within music..at what point do you remain amatuer?
3) your modesty is to be admired.
4) Not sure , but you you come across to me as thinking that way.
5)Agreed.
6) Proves my point about you.
7) Taylor doesn't sing what she does not write , except when Max martin and his type have their pop golden touch all over it...did not say i was writing something ED Sheeran would want to play...again this is your complex kicking in ....interesting.
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I wish you lot would employ the quote tool correctly, so I can actually read who's fighting who without confusing my feeble brain. :D
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The term 'pissing against the wind' springs to mind right now and maybe I'm a sadomasochist at heart for continuing to go down this road with you but here goes...
1) No I don't. Also why do you think, or as you put it 'understand' that I do?
2) I simply asked a question. I didn't say they couldn't. I don't think answering this question bestows any 'in depth' level of songwriting or industry knowledge on anyone just as I don't think posing it means people are bereft of in depth knowledge.
3) Maybe I've a lot to be modest about. Maybe I'm like any aspiring writer on here or other forums still floundering around chasing a dream. Maybe I've already passed up my bite of the cherry. But then again maybe I'm getting to the point of looking at the cherry now it's sitting in my hand and I'm just holding back to strike when it will be sweetest, dare I say lushest, and I'll get a bigger chunk of it. Who knows??? You'll have your opinions but either way they're immaterial
4) In many posts on here I've consistently said that success doesn't just happen over night and that it takes time ad hard work and that it is a gruelling venture. I've specifically made those points when talking about getting towards my own goals and ambitions and the trials and tribulations involved in taking the tiniest steps towards them
5) Glad we agree on something. Not saying there's not worth in your offerings IMHO they just aren't on a par with Ed.
6) Guess you've answered that question on modifying your point of view and learning from those who have already been, and continue to be, commercially successful. Let me know how that works out for you...
7) Again, you've completed missed the point.
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While it pains me further to get all pedantic on your ass, I don't think Elton and Bernie is a fair comparison in this instance either. Since they each take the lyrics and music separately and individually, they're kind of like one songwriter in effect. They don't sit together and discuss which hook to repeat, or which line is going to appeal most to girls aged 12-17. The process is quite different as I see it.
That's actually a good point re Elton and Bernie and one I can't really disagree with.I'm actually a huge fan of their musical offerings. I must admit though your reply has given me a cracking mental image of Bernie and Elton gathered around the piano trying to pen a Jedward song - I think you've just served my ass an ultimate mind f*ck :D
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With Ed Sheeran taking 16 of the top 20 spots, isn't it obvious what a mockery the music industry has become, the hype machine is out of control, and it results in this, if it was a herd of deer, you'd have to shoot 80% of them and re-breed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/singles
Ed who? I probably better get a little more current in my listening I suppose.
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With Ed Sheeran taking 16 of the top 20 spots, isn't it obvious what a mockery the music industry has become, the hype machine is out of control, and it results in this, if it was a herd of deer, you'd have to shoot 80% of them and re-breed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/singles
Ed who? I probably better get a little more current in my listening I suppose.
Singer songwriter from Suffolk - pretty good
I mean you must be good to trigger something like this thread right? More beef than a Big Mac
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Big macs have beef now Jon? :D
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-39265093
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Good link, Mr Jones.
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100% pure beef.
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Excellent post Mr Morefrog. Religion is the opioum of the masses and I suppose music has also been used in that way to a certain extent. Discuss.....
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Ed Sheeran and Marvin Gaye Mashup remix ;)
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Off his new album Divide.
Lyrics don't come a lot crappier than this :(, about the level of half the submissions on here, except a lot wordier ,ive highlighted some choice lines.
ED SHEERAN LYRICS
"Hearts Don't Break Around Here"
She is the sweetest thing that I know
You should see the way she holds me when the lights go low
Shakes my soul like a pot hole, :D every time
Took my heart upon a one way trip
Guess she went wandering off with it
Unlike most women I know
This one will bring it back whole ;D
Daisies, daisies perched upon your forehead ???
Oh my baby, lately I know
That every night I'll kiss you you'll say in my ear
Oh we're in love aren't we?
Hands in your hair, fingers and thumbs baby
I feel safe when you're holding me near
Love the way that you conquer your fear
You know hearts don't break around here
Oh yeah yeah yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah
She is the river flow in Orwell
And tin wind chimes used for doorbells
Fields and trees and her smell, fill my lungs :-\
Spent my summer time beside her
And the rest of the year the same
She is the flint that sparks the lighter
And the fuel that will hold the flame
Oh roses roses laid upon your bed spread
Oh my, hold this, oh this, I know
That every night I'll kiss you you'll say in my ear
Oh we're in love aren't we?
Hands in your hair, fingers and thumbs baby
I feel safe when you're holding me near
Love the way that you conquer your fear
You know hearts don't break around here
Oh yeah yeah yeah
Well I found love in the inside
The arms of a woman I know
She is the lighthouse in the night that will safely guide me home ::)
And I'm not scared of passing over
Or the thought of growing old
Because from now until I go
Every night I'll kiss you you'll say in my ear
Oh we're in love aren't we?
Hands in your hair, fingers and thumbs baby
I feel safe when you're holding me near
Love the way that you conquer your fear
You know hearts don't break around here
Oh yeah yeah
Every night I'll kiss you you'll say in my ear
Oh we're in love aren't we?
Hands in your hair, fingers and thumbs baby
I feel safe when you're holding me near
Love the way that you conquer your fear
You know hearts don't break around here
Yeah yeah yeah
You know hearts don't break around here
Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah
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For a song lyric,I'm quite enamoured with the 'Shakes my soul like a pot hole',line. Being a regular rider of a stiffly suspended sportsbike on our crappily surfaced and poorly maintained roads,I can readily identify with this one.
It has a certain je ne sais quoi..yanno? :D
Then again I may be in the 50% of crap submissions on here,so my opinion may be moot. :(
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For a song lyric,I'm quite enamoured with the 'Shakes my soul like a pot hole',line. Being a regular rider of a stiffly suspended sportsbike on our crappily surfaced and poorly maintained roads,I can readily identify with this one.
It has a certain je ne sais quoi..yanno? :D
Then again I may be in the 50% of crap submissions on here,so my opinion may be moot. :(
oh , hang on ..look at this way 50 % on here write like an international pop star.. ;)
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I think we will have to agree to disagree on this STC
Song lyrics are not poetry so I think it is unfair to do a critique without hearing how they fit to the rhythm and the overall vibe of the "whole"
It is certainly not Shakespeare, but that is kinda missing the whole point IMHO
The "shakes my soul like a pot hole" is a fantastic line (IMHO) as it exemplifies what pop lyrics are all about - finding a new, fresh, way to say the same old thing
Most people can relate to the horrible shaking you get when you hit a pothole (whether as a kid on a bike, in a car or on a motorbike) so it is a fantastic simile that is very current as potholes are in the news a lot at the moment
The use also makes the line stand out - who uses potholes in lyrics!?!?!?!
I used to think the lyrics to Bruno Mars' "Grenede" were really corny and awful until I "got it" and realised how he was saying the same old thing in a different way
As you are someone writing with a commercial slant I have to agree a bit with SING4ME88's comments and I am genuinely surprised you are so "down" on Ed Sheeran (et al)'s writing style and not dissecting it to see what you can learn - this isn't a "dig" - I am genuinely surprised given your aspirations
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I think we will have to agree to disagree on this STC
Song lyrics are not poetry so I think it is unfair to do a critique without hearing how they fit to the rhythm and the overall vibe of the "whole"
It is certainly not Shakespeare, but that is kinda missing the whole point IMHO
The "shakes my soul like a pot hole" is a fantastic line (IMHO) as it exemplifies what pop lyrics are all about - finding a new, fresh, way to say the same old thing
Most people can relate to the horrible shaking you get when you hit a pothole (whether as a kid on a bike, in a car or on a motorbike) so it is a fantastic simile that is very current as potholes are in the news a lot at the moment
The use also makes the line stand out - who uses potholes in lyrics!?!?!?!
I used to think the lyrics to Bruno Mars' "Grenede" were really corny and awful until I "got it" and realised how he was saying the same old thing in a different way
As you are someone writing with a commercial slant I have to agree a bit with SING4ME88's comments and I am genuinely surprised you are so "down" on Ed Sheeran (et al)'s writing style and not dissecting it to see what you can learn - this isn't a "dig" - I am genuinely surprised given your aspirations
The post wasn't about being down on Ed Sheeran, but got hijacked as they do, and went in a different direction. i know E/S merits,and they're limited, these lyrics will just be papered over with his usual ,rappy.reggae,soul style, they won't be noticed ,except the soundbite phrases that stand out...
I understand this in pop writing, i also use this approach , pop lyrics generally don't stand up to scrutinization , but in my opinion, these are particularly bad , like a 12 year old wrote them.(the music critics have not been particularly kind about Divide i notice)
So lets stop this nonsense about being a genius, he's nowhere near....although, if he decides he's got enough money and fame, and starts making music for musics sake..maybe we will see another side to him. I like his song he did for the hobbit, a lot...'I SEE FIRE''
Well ,what can i /we learn from him..i'm not sure? unless it's just dumb it all down, write about nothing of substance, and get songs made in his style...i 'm at a loss to say more....all these artists Kanye. Drake The Weeknd etc, get tip top production on tracks ,great session musicians.....and it all masks what is really not there and thats good writing...but hey....life in 2017.
I don't take what you say as a dig at all , i know how i come across , i'm working on it. ;)
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HUGE +1 to what Boydies says above about that line. Of course, it's not Wordsworth, Shakespeare or TS Eliot but it doesn't have to be to 'work'. It 'works' because it's simple, it's fresh and it's original.It also acts as an attention grabber and a point of reference - hell, we're discussing it on here!
A lot of the successful pop songs of late have lines that some might consider stupid or poorly constructed from a purist point of view but from a commercial perspective they are gold dust. It's not that the lyrics are in any way inferior. In fact, they are better for connecting with people and relating to their experiences that some of the self conceited and 'trying too hard' to be clever/smart/sophisticated lyrics that veer more towards poetry than anything else.
A few recent examples of lyrics - and in some cases main hooks - from recent pop hits with a proven record of chart success include: DNCE 'Cake by the Ocean' - "Ah ya ya ya ya I keep on hoping we'll eat cake by the ocean"; Charlie Puth 'Marvin Gaye' "Let's Marvin Gaye and get it on" and Katie Perry 'Chained to the Rhythm' "Turn it up, keep it on repeat, Stumbling around like a wasted zombie".
Far from being throw away lines these are no doubt well thought through and carefully crafted and well placed lines. They might not work to everyone's liking but IMHO they pack a punch and serve their purpose of being fresh, saying something that's been said a billion times in many other songs in a new and unique way and they are memorable in that people talk about them on forums like this one and others.
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So lets stop this nonsense about being a genius, he's nowhere near....although, if he decides he's got enough money and fame, and starts making music for musics sake..maybe we will see another side to him. I like his song he did for the hobbit, a lot...'I SEE FIRE''
This is a really interesting point that I hadn't previously considered
As most know I am a huge Prince fan and I personally prefer the more obscure stuff he did when he was no longer fussed about commercial success so I think you have an excellent point there
In fact I did hear a story that Prince was told he had "lost it" and could never write a hit again so "for a bit of fun" he wrote "Most Beautiful Girl In The World" that proved them wrong - I would argu until the cows come home that Prince can wear the genius badge!
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In a way this hinges on understandings and definitions of genius and how one wishes to conceptualise it. There is a school of thought that says genius can involve an exceptional level of creativity and can manifest itself in coming up with something that others could not. Simplicity and genius, therefore, are not mutually exclusive nor for that matter are sophistry and genius synonymous with each other. ed Sheeran and others, based on the examples given above, have expressed themselves in an incredibly creative way that others could not even think of - hence some find it odd, strange or stupid. To put another way is Paul Simon a genius? 'You can call me Al' is full of similarly nonsensical lyrics to that pothole line but I doubt Simon would be maligned for it to anywhere near the degree Sheeran has been on here.
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So lets stop this nonsense about being a genius, he's nowhere near....although, if he decides he's got enough money and fame, and starts making music for musics sake..maybe we will see another side to him. I like his song he did for the hobbit, a lot...'I SEE FIRE''
This is a really interesting point that I hadn't previously considered
As most know I am a huge Prince fan and I personally prefer the more obscure stuff he did when he was no longer fussed about commercial success so I think you have an excellent point there
In fact I did hear a story that Prince was told he had "lost it" and could never write a hit again so "for a bit of fun" he wrote "Most Beautiful Girl In The World" that proved them wrong - I would argu until the cows come home that Prince can wear the genius badge!
Absolutely agree on Prince; great writer, singer and musician - he played everything to a extremely high standard. Anyone who can decide to write a hit single to prove a point, i.e. he understands the formula, deserves the title. Sheeran's good at what he does, and perhaps the issue is that there isn't enough competition, but he's not in the same class as Prince.
Mike
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Surely it's all subjective? Who on this earth can definitely say who is genius and who isn't?
One person loves Prince, another Ed Sheeran. Someone else prefers Muddy Waters and another person John Cage.
There are people that touch us lyrically, melodically, personality-wise, clothes-wise, because of their personal codes and philosophies on life, their coolness factor, or because they're a rebel or handsome or because they consistently don't give a damn. Or because they can dance. Or because they can't dance and do give a damn. Each of us will find ourselves reacting to different things about different people because of the experiences of our own life. We all think our own heroes are the best heroes. Some of our personal heroes appeal to the masses, some don't.
But genius? Is it measured in sales and popularity? Does that make Ronald MacDonald the biggest food genius in the world? Mr Ikea the greatest ever furniture designer? Or is it measured in innovation? And then, does someone have to consistently do innovative things or is once enough? If consistency is a factor then for how long? If once is enough does that once still have to be popular and/or widely known about or can you be a genius-in-hiding? There have been numerous people who haven't "made it" until after they died. Does that mean they weren't genius when alive, but are when dead?
I'm always bemused when the genius word is thrown around or when people start definitively saying someone is better than someone else in the arts. This isn't the 100m - you can't measure song-writing ability. Yes, you can measure success in terms of singles sold, but that's as much to do with looks, promotion, marketing budgets, luck, willingness to conform, etc etc.
Fun discussion though. There should be a diary - we ought to come back in 40 years and see how well our current heroes have stood the test of time.
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I'm just gonna drop this Fry and Laurie gem here guys
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That video is blocked on copyright grounds here in the UK :(
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You are right DELB0Y - it is subjective opinion
The best "gauge" is the "consensus of opinion" - but this does not make it "right"
This is what I love about song writing and it promotes great discussion like this
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Surely it's all subjective? Who on this earth can definitely say who is genius and who isn't?
MENSA and an IQ test might have reason to disagree with this... :D
I think you've actually made the point I was trying to make only you've managed to do so in a much less convoluted way! Whether Ed Sheeran is or isn't a genius depends on what you understand 'genius' to be and how you prefer to measure it. There's no universal standard though I think Boydie has a point about popular consensus being a good barometer, though your point on Ikea and McDonlads is some good food for thought (pardon the horrendous pun....) Maybe though it can be said that it is possible to be a commercial songwriting genius? I mean he's F'd the charts in the A and has consistently shown an ability to do so and he has that popular appeal. Whether he's better or worse than X. Y or Z is subjective and whether he'll stand the test of time purely speculative.
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With Ed Sheeran taking 16 of the top 20 spots, isn't it obvious what a mockery the music industry has become, the hype machine is out of control, and it results in this, if it was a herd of deer, you'd have to shoot 80% of them and re-breed.
Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....this is what happens when a small % of artists and writers get all the moonlight , all the backing....it's a farce....the youth market is so manipulated now, this chart means nothing , if it ever did. :-\
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/singles
I believe the core reason is the blurred lines between singles and album-songs because of the changing way we consume media. Unless they dis-include streams I can see this happening more and more often, and it's not surprising.
But I wouldn't say we should rid the top 40, just need to realize that we cannot compare it to the pre-stream era.
Cheers,
Scott.
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With Ed Sheeran taking 16 of the top 20 spots, isn't it obvious what a mockery the music industry has become, the hype machine is out of control, and it results in this, if it was a herd of deer, you'd have to shoot 80% of them and re-breed.
Its not like an iconic album like Dark side of the moon or Rumours as been created.....this is what happens when a small % of artists and writers get all the moonlight , all the backing....it's a farce....the youth market is so manipulated now, this chart means nothing , if it ever did. :-\
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/singles
I believe the core reason is the blurred lines between singles and album-songs because of the changing way we consume media. Unless they dis-include streams I can see this happening more and more often, and it's not surprising.
But I wouldn't say we should rid the top 40, just need to realize that we cannot compare it to the pre-stream era.
Cheers,
Scott.
I don't think they can not include streaming, because of the level of sales , and to a degree the charts do show who's hot and who's not, but the big label influence is so strong now it distorts what data is used....for eg: with my mate ED , i was working at a place a couple of weeks ago , and the radio station must have played Castle on the hill & Shape of you 4 /6 times an hour all day long....how do other artists , even his peers get a look in ,with this level of promotion.....but ,the charts must exist
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I think one conclusion we can make for certain is that everyone has different tastes in music...for some people the top 40 is not (and probably has never been) an indicator of 'good' music. Thats fine..I'm one of those. Whats great about this day and age is that it is easier than ever to access music you do like and discover new music.
In terms of the official top 40, there are 2 changes I would like to see that I think would make the top 40 more reflective of what people are actually listening to and introduce some welcome diversification:
- Currently, 150 streams of a song count as '1' toward the chart. I would like to see just 5 or 10 streams count as '1' but then any further streams from an individual user are not counted. Why? If you bought the song (CD or download), it would count as 1 but you would doubtlessly listen to it many many times. I think this would prevent all the songs off a popular album dominating the chart as though they were 'singles'. (I.e. what has happened with Ed Sheeran).
- Somehow incorporate radio airplay like they do in the US. This can be difficult/contentious, but there are plenty of programs on radio 1, radio 2 and especially 6 music which champion unsigned, new and/or little-known music. Including this data would help diversify the chart I think and also give a welcome boost to unsigned acts. Two areas of difficulty are:
- You would need to somehow weight the data to account for music being played at 3am vs music at e.g. 5:30pm.
- There are countless stations which just churn out the hits all day long. How do we account for this? I imagine nobody is interested in 'Livin' on Prayer' re-entering the charts ;D. There could be a rule along the lines of 'only music which has either not previously charted or was released within the past X months is counted'.
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I've removed some posts which were going way off topic and starting to lose all signs of good etiquette.
This is an interesting thread, I'd hate to have to lock it!
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I have listened to Ed Sheeran's Hearts Don't Break Around Here and what can I say? Its so bland, I had to force myself to listen all the way through.
The poor woman sounds so boring, or should I say Ed Sheeran's response to her love is so boring.
The line "Shakes my sole like a pothole" is so out of place. Hitting a pothole is jarring. If you're on a city street or country road it may be dangerous and upsetting. If you are on a dirt track or rallying it may be thrilling. If you're Ed Sheeran its neither. For me its a line that calls out from the page look how clever I am. When I listened it just flew past, neither here nor there.
That's the third song of his I've played this week and I don't think his music will be on my Christmas list.
Keith
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New Man is an absolute banger ngl
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New Man is one of my favourites too - I won't quote the "stand out" line but I am sure you will get it on first listen ;)
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New Man is one of my favourites too - I won't quote the "stand out" line but I am sure you will get it on first listen ;)
That line... I was listening to this album at work and nearly burst out laughing when he said that
"and everytime a rap song comes on he makes a gun sign
Says "Choon, boydem light up the room"" is also a highlight for me
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I have to say Ed Sheeran has a very impressive list of awards and nominations to his name and it look like theres more to come, from what im reading he done the hard work and traveling so he deserve to have 16 of the top 20 spots, another impressive award.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Ed_Sheeran
"Shakes my soul like a pothole every time" i like it :) ive drove over a few pothole in my time and they shook more than my soul ;D i have listen to his song and tbh i really do like the way he sings that line.
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I'm not really convinced on the need to scrap streaming from counting towards chart positions. The purpose of the charts is to chart what sells and from this we know what people are listening to (otherwise why would they be buying a CD - to decorate cakes with??). If we want to know what people are listening to then streaming is an equally valid means of measuring this. I stream music several hours a day and I'm sure I'm not the only one. In fact I steam more music than I buy or than I listen to on the radio. MTV etc is probably my second source of music after YouTube. The fact that this all counts towards chart positions now is simply reflective of the fact there are now more ways to listen to and consume music. If this is discounted from the official charts then they can't really be considered an accurate barometer of what people are really consuming.
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New Man is an absolute banger ngl
Sorry it doesn't do anything for me. Played it 4 times. Reminds me of another song but can't put my finger on it.
Stand out line for me is "Sip champagne out of cider cans".
To be honest looking at the words I don't really care what happens to any of the three characters in the song. None of them seem to have any likeable traits.
C'est la vie, it just goes to sure you never can tell.
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I'm not really convinced on the need to scrap streaming from counting towards chart positions.
I dont think streaming should be scrapped at all - it is increasingly the most important way in which we consume music. I think how it is handled needs to be rethought though.
The purpose of the charts is to chart what sells
Bang on - but if you sign up to spotify and stream the same song mutlitple times, it hasnt been 'sold' multiple times to you. The current method of 150 streams == 1 'sale' is poor as it is both to low (it certainly would take me a while to chalk up 150 streams of a single song), but also has no cutoff so that multiple streams from a single person could be counted as more than one 'sale'.
Streaming services like spotify require you to log on to work so the ability to tie streams to a user is there. Make the number of streams required for a sale much lower but once a sale of a song from a single user has been counted, it cant be counted again.
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That's actually a fair point about multiple streams. Tying to a user is one solution particularly for Spotfiy but I'm not sure I'd be a runner as far as YouTube is concerned, and the pull of YouTube can be seen in the viral success of Gangnum Style. I'm no tech-head so this is well outta my league but would it be possible to tie streams to an IP address perhaps?
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Okay and again charts are and always were just a guide line for the music business even shows like the X factor use the audience votes as a chart to find out what way to go with the remaining acts that they have.
Ed Sheeran been mention here a lot and since i started reading up on him i like him, he came up through the ranks as they say like gigging traveling getting HIS songs out there and meeting and listening to those who know what they're talking about and not giving those people thoughts of "this guy is only listening to himself" in other words they listen to him but most importantly he listens to them and added his talent to it.
Time to scrap the top 40 and replace it with what, no matter what you replace it with you're still going to have a top 40 and as for fairness, its the people that buy that makes the top whatever and its the charts that telling us and most importantly those in the business what most people are buying, they're the ones spending the big bucks, depending on the audience of course.
Back to topic, time to scrap the top 40 and replace it with what?
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That's actually a fair point about multiple streams. Tying to a user is one solution particularly for Spotfiy but I'm not sure I'd be a runner as far as YouTube is concerned, and the pull of YouTube can be seen in the viral success of Gangnum Style. I'm no tech-head so this is well outta my league but would it be possible to tie streams to an IP address perhaps?
Yes you can, but there are a couple of problems:
- Multiple people listening on different devices but using the same wifi will have the same public IP address (it is the address of the router)
- If you listen at e.g. home then go to a cafe or some other wifi and listen there it will be different IP's, even though same user.
Youtube is a problem there yes. Also, playlists created by spotify are more likely to include successful songs so you may add a 'sale' cause you have it on in the background or whatever and some songs that you wouldnt normally buy get played. But I guess that is exactly the same as radio there...
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I think the only way to do it would be "per account" - although there are obvious issues with YouTube where you don't need accounts
Personally I would like to see the charts split in 2
A "sales chart" - physical sales and purchased downloads
A "what's hot" chart that is streaming - including the paid services but also soundcloud, YouTube, bandcamp etc.
I think this would be give a much fairer picture of both the "industry" and what people are listening to
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Took the time to listen to two Ed Sheeran songs. Hadn't heard either one before.
One of the two was something like "castle in the clouds" and I thought it was a true and genuine piece of hit music.
The other one made no impact on my memory at all.
I don't care if he "came up through the ranks" or paid a lick of dues. I either like the music or I don't.
So far, after two songs, Loved one, the other was entirely forgettable. 50% is a pretty good mark.
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Took the time to listen to two Ed Sheeran songs. Hadn't heard either one before.
One of the two was something like "castle in the clouds" and I thought it was a true and genuine piece of hit music.
The other one made no impact on my memory at all.
I don't care if he "came up through the ranks" or paid a lick of dues. I either like the music or I don't.
So far, after two songs, Loved one, the other was entirely forgettable. 50% is a pretty good mark.
That'll probably be Castle On The Hill
I'd recommend The A Team, Photograph, Lego House, You Need Me, I Don't Need You and Galway Girl if you're interested in listening further
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Took the time to listen to two Ed Sheeran songs. Hadn't heard either one before.
That'll probably be Castle On The Hill
I'd recommend The A Team, Photograph, Lego House, You Need Me, I Don't Need You and Galway Girl if you're interested in listening further
Yes.... "Castle on the Hill." I thought it was an exceptional song. Memorable.
Thanks for the other recommendations. I do intend to listen, and it really helps to know what has impressed someone else. Over time, I'll listen to enough to decide to what extent this artist impacts me. Your suggestions help.