[Mystic Dreamer]

Hi,

I'm currently working on a song I wrote.  The song is finished in the sense that all the lyrics are written and it could be sung playing along with just chords.   However, to make the song more interesting I've added additional instruments.  When I've done this I've also added some lead guitar licks in the chorus.

This is where a "problem" seems to come into play.

If I sing the song without these guitar licks I don't need to use partial measures because the chorus can all be sung in 4/4 time with complete measures.   However, when sung in this way there is no time for guitar licks in places where I would like for them to be.   So I find that I need to add some extra time between the lyrics of the chorus.  However, I can't add a full measure.  That's simply too much time.  A guitar lick that long would sound awkward and out of place.   And even with a short guitar lick it doesn't sound good for there to be a pause after the guitar lick before the chorus lyrics start back up again.

However, what I have found is that if I insert a particle measure of only 3 whole beats (instead of 4) it sounds great.  That's just enough time for the guitar lick to complete and the lyrics to pick back up again.

So here's what I end up with. 

A verse, that is all 4/4  time with complete measures up to where the chorus begins.

But then the chorus takes the following pattern.  4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3
In other words there's a partial measure of only three beats following every measure of 4 beats.

This seems to work out just right in a sheet music program.

My question is simple, "Is this anywhere near normal?"

Do songs often contain partial measures like this?  Or would this drive professional musicians nuts?

It seems easy enough to play, but technically it's 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3  Through the chorus and then back into standard 4/4 time for the next verse.

I don't know how to write it up any other way.  That format just seems to work out perfectly in the sheet music program.

[Boydie]

It feels like it "works" because you have 4 x "3/4" sections = 12 beats (the equivalent of 3 x "4/4" sections, which also = 12 beats) so you can get straight back into your stride

This is absolutely fine as long as it sounds good for the style, which we would need to hear

I would imagine the only effect would be feeling like the next section of the chorus is starting a beat "early", which could either be a really good thing to add some interest OR be really annoying if it doesn't feel "right" to the listener

So I think devices like this (which are great to add some "tension & release" to a song) all depend on the "context" so I think it can only be "judged" by hearing it - and even then it is likely to be subjective where some people like it and some don't

[Mystic Dreamer]

Thanks for the quick reply Boydie.

I actually ironed this out last night and did it all in 4/4 time with complete bars.  Timing is not my strong point for sure.   I often write songs that seem to need a partial measure the way I naturally play them.  But I can usually get rid of the partial measure by simply rephrasing things slightly.

Now that I got this piece all back into full bars I think it does sound better. 

My problem is mainly when I go to write things out in score, I have trouble figuring out precisely where everything should go.  What I did last night was set up a metronome in Audacity (my recording program), then I played the piece paying attention to the metronome.   I was able to then visually look at the waveforms to see precisely where I needed to place notes in the sheet music program.

What I originally didn't realize is that I'm actually going over bar lines.  In other words, my first phrase of the chorus actually ends on beat one of the following bar.   I didn't realize that until I actually saw this in audacity against a click track.   Once I realized that I was actually going over the bar line things started to make sense.

Maybe I'll print this score out eventually so you can see what I'm talking about.   In any case, I got it all "squared" away in 4/4 time now and it sounds right.

Thanks for the reply.

[tone]

Hey Mystic

Glad you sorted your timing issues out. I think it's worth saying though, that having an extra or missing beat in your pattern can work really, well. Professional musicians aren't going to have a problem with a time signature change. So long as your music serves the song, I don't see a problem

I have a song that does this called opium fiend - the single-line refrain 'do you know how I feel' is in 3/4 - the rest of the song in 4/4. Have a listen if you like https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/opium-fiend

[beckylucythomas]

Yep, pro musicians def wouldn't have any problem with playing odd time sigs.... So it's all a question of whether it sounds "right" (or just how you want it to sound).

A good, well-known example of weird time signatures working brilliantly is The Beatles All You Need Is Love..... From Wikipedia: "The main verse pattern contains a total of 29 beats, split into two 7/4 measures, a single bar of 8/4, followed by a one bar return of 7/4 before repeating the pattern. The chorus, however, maintains a steady 4/4 beat with the exception of the last bar of 6/4 (on the lyric 'love is all you need')." That's pretty non-standard, but of course we all know it and love it!

Would be great to hear what you've got!

[Mystic Dreamer]

Yep, pro musicians def wouldn't have any problem with playing odd time sigs.... So it's all a question of whether it sounds "right" (or just how you want it to sound).

Actually what I was attempting to do wouldn't have been a traditional time signature change.  It was just going to be in 4/4 time basically, but when it came to the chorus ever other bar would be a partial bar with only 3 beats.  So you wouldn't actually change the time signature every bar.   I don't even know if what I was trying to do would work actually.

The only reason this came up is because I was trying to write out what I just naturally play.  And I simply got confused over how to write it out.  At first it simply didn't look like it would fit into full measures.  But with further analysis it actually did fit.

I don't "write" music.   In other words, I don't write out music in score first, and then play it.  Instead I just improvise the music, and then try to write it out in score.  So sometimes I just get confused about how to notate it properly.

It's funny because I was having problems with this for over a week now.  That's why I joined this forum just to ask this question.  Then after I posted the question I went back and tried a new approach and solved the problem.

By the way, my new approach was to simply set up a click track in Audacity and then play along with the click.    Then I could go back and analysis precisely where each note and vocal word is falling against the click. 

When I did that I immediately saw that I had been writing it out in score all wrong.   I was trying to fit a vocal phrase within a 4 beat measure, when in reality it was actually ending on the 5th beat.  In other words it crosses over the bar line and the last beat of that phrase is actually the first beat of the next measure.  I didn't realize that originally. I was thinking that the phrase was actually ending on beat four.

So once I realized that the phrase actually goes over the bar line onto the first beat of the next measure that changed everything, and it all came together for me.  I had been trying to squeeze those 5 beats into 4.

A good, well-known example of weird time signatures working brilliantly is The Beatles All You Need Is Love..... From Wikipedia: "The main verse pattern contains a total of 29 beats, split into two 7/4 measures, a single bar of 8/4, followed by a one bar return of 7/4 before repeating the pattern. The chorus, however, maintains a steady 4/4 beat with the exception of the last bar of 6/4 (on the lyric 'love is all you need')." That's pretty non-standard, but of course we all know it and love it!

Would be great to hear what you've got!

I'll definitely look into that score.  There may be times in some of my songs when I will need to mess with time signatures.  So it's nice to see examples where time signatures are mixed within a single song.

I'll be posting my tune eventually.  But it may be quite a while before I post a live performance.

I might post the sheet music version here.  But it's going to sound real mechanical.  I get it as close as I can, but it's never going to flow like playing it live of course.