The Songwriter Forum - songwriting reviews, tips and chat
Songwriter Forum => Resources & Marketing => Topic started by: Boydie on March 31, 2014, 05:24:42 PM
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Hi All
I wanted to make this post to try and help out those on this forum that intend to make any commercial pitches to publishers
I have been very lucky to have been "picked up" by a publisher, who is currently pitching my songs to artists, managers and larger publishers
This afternoon I received some feedback on one of my songs, which was initially a little disappointing BUT within a few minutes I realised the value of this feedback so I thought I would share it with you guys and gals
The feedback was from the SENIOR A&R MANAGER at one of the big boys, which has placed hits with Justin Timberlake, Daft Punk, Madonna, Rihanna, Britney Spears and many others - so it doesn't really get any more "from the horses mouth" than that
The song being pitched was "Watching Me, Watching You"
https://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic/watching-me-watching-you
The feedback from the pitch was:
I'm sorry to be negative again but this demo quality is juts not good enough.
Really, even if the sings were great the A & R s these days don’t bother of the demo is not high standard.
So i m sorry for that but the whole quality of sound has gone really up since the swedes arrived
I have no idea who "the swedes" are and the person writing this email is not a native English speaker (by "sings" I am pretty sure he means vocals - although I quite like the term "sings" for vocals so I might start using it as "industry speak" ;D)
I am confident that he is referring to the "quality of sound" rather than the quality of the song itself, although we should always be striving to write better songs and I personally do not feel this song is "the one" but the publisher wanted to pitch it
To be fair this was my first attempt at "modernising" my sound and it was recorded over a year ago - and I have learnt a lot in that year
However, I was still surprised at the comment regarding the quality of the demo
I have been banging on for ages that the days of "guitar & vocal" demo are dead - are we now seeing the end of "home produced" demos (good news for studio owners!)
I would be interested in other's thoughts about the "sound quality" of the track and the overall quality required for commercial pitching
I am actually seeing this as a huge positive and an opportunity to "raise my game" - although I am a little stumped as to exactly what I need to improve so any help to figure this out as well would be gratefully received!!!!!
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I think is still positivity in this feedback even if it wasn't the result you wanted. Any little bit of feedback from these guys is like gold dust- and from what I gather I think their problem is more in relation to it being home studio produced than the actual quality of the song. At least this allows you to focus future efforts etc although the thought that only professionally produced studios is a little disheartening and something I've always found hard to accept. I maintain - rightly or wrongly -that if a sure hit were pitched with only guitar and vocals that would still see the $ signs and snap it up.... well one can only hope ;)
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Great post. I'd just like to say that he certainly meant to say 'songs' when he wrote 'sings'.
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I will take a listen to the song tomorrow
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Hi Boydie, i am probably wrong, but i was thinking "the Swedes" perhaps refers to ABBA??? May be stupid, but these two guys from ABBA apparantly had some creative and new ideas about recording and mixing, and especially of the vocals, so....i was thinking that this publicist may specifically be hinting to looking at how the vocals are mixed in your demo, so the technical sound quality of the "sings" ;D ;D ;D
will listen tonight
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Interesting comments
I think "the swedes" is actually referring to something else, probably a new management team at the publisher as I got the feeling it was something more recent - ie recently they have raised the benchmark for demos
I think it is great feedback from "the industry" which is why I wanted to share with y'all - especially those pitching
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Sweden is a major force in the pop world( or was) so maybe they meant the `swedish` sound,,like Roxette....?
Apart from that,,,the reply in MHO is unprofessional ,the spelling and terminology is amateurish ....and i don`t know if they are correct!
But the best demo you can possibly make can only help.
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the reply in MHO is unprofessional ,the spelling and terminology is amateurish ....and i don`t know if they are correct!
Just to clarify, this was a private email from one publisher to another - they clearly have a "relationship" of sorts for him to even receive a response
The "big" publisher in question represents the biggest acts and writers on the planet so I am starting to wonder whether this is the "creme de la creme" of publishers and therefore they expect to receive better quality demos
It will be interesting to see if I get any feedback from the smaller publishers, artists etc.
I will keep you posted...
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Kind of what I was saying in my review of your song Boydie - not that I am in any way an expert - but my English is marginally better than your contact ???
The sound needs beefed up like Avicci and Swedish House Mafia - the swedes I presume
Produce your track like a dance remix - hard bass and beats - lots of autotune on vocals , sythn break outs
I haven't got the skill to do it but I am sure you have ;D
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Thanks KAFLA
I think you are spot on about the Swedish reference
I also think your bang on the money about the production
I don't quite know how to achieve this yet - but I will learn!!!!!
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I'm also pretty sure Kafla is exactly right, it's what I thought before reading the thread.
Jamie
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Aaaaaa those bloody sweedes!! ;)
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I believe the email is written just using slang to get his point across quickly 'sings' is singers and 'Swedes' the band already mentioned.
I had a listen to the song, I don't know what instruments/tools were used to create the track but to get the beefed up beats/effects for todays market maybe a tool like Maschine could assist. In Maschine you can create a number of scenes to create the song in your DAW, it seems very flexible but there would obviously be a learning curve.
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Just listened to the song now. Really enjoyed it. Well done.
Also as I said in my earlier post he meant to write 'songs' not 'sings'. I is next to O on keyboards.
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Ah - I think you are right CLUTCHIT
So If that is the case even a GREAT song will not be considered by A&R if the production of the demo is not top notch :o
This has been quite an awakening for me
I am also starting to think the "swedes" are the likes of the "Swedish mafia" and Avicii
I have been studying some of their production techniques and have a whole load of new ideas / approaches to try out so whatever they meant I have already learnt a lot
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Hi Boydie,
I don't know anything about the above as i will probably never write anything worth pitching (and wouldn't know how to). However, maybe it's being pitched as the wrong type of song. It sounds like it has more of an indie edge to me than pop. Reminds me of MGMT when they did Oracular Spectacular. That Electric Feel sort of sound.
"Lots of autotune." :'( This is why the off button was invented.
Good luck.
Digger
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Just came across this collection, maybe the swedes reference is to midi, wav etc collection 'Producer Loops Swedish Pop volumes 1-6', volume 6 has just been released?
A series of Pop, Dance and Swedish-House infused Construction Kits, created and produced exclusively for Producer Loops by Simon Rudd of The Fliptones.
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JFYI: Sweden is the third biggest pop producing nation (after the US and the UK) - with just 9 million inhabitants.
Cheers,
Bernd
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I hadn't even considered the population ratios! :o
I have been watching production video after production video and I am starting to "get" what the Swedes are doing - and it is actually great!
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Since i'm involved in this process to a degree, i've been reading more about it.
The `facts` i seem to be reading are this: A&R , Publishers etc....hear a lot of well recorded stuff on a daily basis....and your `good enough` version might just not get their attention...it might even not get played.
But, if your a good songwriter and your work is of `hit` quality,even though it might be a little rough, it still might get a chance somewhere within the industry...
The better quality demos ,say something about the creator of the work,that their committed , they take their work seriously..this sits well with men in suits.
I' m sure there's loads more points...like getting your hands on 'tip` sheets..... .....in truth , even with talent.it might be the case that money needs to be spent..somewhere along the line?
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I thought I had responded to this thread earlier but clearly not!
I think the 'Swedes'is in reference to the massive influence Swedish/Scandinavian writers and producers are now bearing on the industry. I don't necessarily think it is anything new for example wasn't it there even in the times of Abba? Lately however I think they are literally running the show. Avicci, Swedish House Mafia, Max Martin, StarGate (Mikkel Eriksen and Tor Hermansen) have owned the charts in recent times. Not only in the UK/US but also in the K Pop and J Pop scene- they can't get enough of the Scandinavian style!
Personally I love the Swede style. It's so in your face, vibrant, intense and energetic. It is feel good thrashy pop/EDM and I kinda try and style my lyrics on similar songs written by these guys (my ventures with EZ Keys and Mixcraft likewise but these are making even less headway than my awful lyrics!!!)
I've attached the link to a video with a bit of a Q and A with Stargate. They discuss the trials and tribulations of'making it' and how they came to have a huge influence in the UK and US markets! They give out a few tips and advice for aspiring ht makers and is worth a watch even if just to learn a thing or two about how the 'industry' ticks over!
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Yes ,interesting vids..i luv all this info you can get on YT...
Couple of relatively modest guys, who over came a few hurdles and have become very successful, but the important components is the fact that they have learnt their craft, and have talent to compose melody and understand hit formula.
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Indeed it seems that they value a song in its totality ie lyrics,melody and production. Also found it interesting that they discourage from trying to shed uniqueness in order to fit in with current trends.
These guys clearly have mastered the hit formula as you rightly state. These guys and people like Max Martin, Cirkut, Benny Blanco are literally the bar that I try to aim for - and always seem to fall pitifully short mind you - but its hard to convert how you'hear' the lyrics in your head to someone reading them. I'm messing about with EZ Keys which is fine for laying down a few chords as a general feel but does little to create a bouncing melody or dope hook! The only alternative is to 'sing' the lyrics but that doesn't help either- in my head I'm hearing Bruno or Ellie Goulding singing yet when I open my mouth its... well ME singing!!! I am singularly the worst singer in the world! I wonder if repetitive and irritating buzz words in lyrical format and a pish poor midi of horrendous 'singing' would be enough to entice these guys to work with me????????? They do admire an underdog after all!!!! ;)
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I haven't had a chance to listen to the song but will do. By "Swedes" I immediately thought of the Britney/Backstreet Boys connection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheiron_Productions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheiron_Productions)
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THATS A LOVELY TRACK
their loss
ps I bet max Clifford could get you in there,
but you might have to do something for him first
tony...
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Oh now you are talking Benjo.... we always say that the music business is a 'dirty' business ;)
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another good vid.
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He's actually talking about a number of ultra successful Scandinavian writers like Max Martin, Tor Erik Hermansen, Mikkel Storleer Eriksen (Stargate) etc... Plus the guys from Swedish House Mafia. They've been having a bit of a renaissance over there for the past few years with Max Martin an absolutely incredible hit writing machine (and who Taylor Swift turned to when she upped her pop game).
Having pitched a fair bit recently I can confirm they really are expecting to hear something VERY close to 'releasable'. Ie to the point where they're not expected to think beyond what they hear.
Here's a track were pitching around http://soundcloud.com/izzymariehill/spacegirl-izzy-marie-hill
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He's actually talking about a number of ultra successful Scandinavian writers like Max Martin, Tor Erik Hermansen, Mikkel Storleer Eriksen (Stargate) etc... Plus the guys from Swedish House Mafia. They've been having a bit of a renaissance over there for the past few years with Max Martin an absolutely incredible hit writing machine (and who Taylor Swift turned to when she upped her pop game).
Having pitched a fair bit recently I can confirm they really are expecting to hear something VERY close to 'releasable'. Ie to the point where they're not expected to think beyond what they hear.
Here's a track were pitching around http://soundcloud.com/izzymariehill/spacegirl-izzy-marie-hill
Good pop song, just listening to your others.
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Thank you!
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Aaaaaa those bloody sweedes!! ;)
Eeeey man! ;D
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Aaaaaa those bloody sweedes!! ;)
Eeeey man! ;D
Så mycket svensk man kan bli! ;D
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Those Swedes are not so bad! I worked in Sweden on and off for 20 years, and lived in beautiful Stockholm for 3 years!
Great place! And we still are friends with our old neighbours.
Cheers
Jamie
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Having read more....the truth seems to be this........if you get something published fine...then you want a placement !
Don't expect much more than a small part on some tv program.....no ones going to pick up your work of art..even if it's mega.
So better to write fairly non descript stuff,with a neutral lyric.. this then gives it more chance,with a broader appeal to more types of tv, synch type deals.
Famous artists..will never write with you or use your one-off classic...they write themselves, or co-write with songwriters that have a proven track record and that can create 10 'hit' songs per year.....real hit songs not just stuff your mate tells you is good.
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I think you are spot on STC
However, if you do write a guaranteed hit song - like the ones you hear for the first time on the radio and think "that is gonna be huge" - then that is the exception to the rule
This is what those that want to get published need to be striving for
It is possible to write for the TV sync market (which is very lucrative) and although not mutually exclusive I think in general you should be targeting one or the other as you may miss either target IMHO
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Yes if you write a proper hit song...it might be used by an unknown,or minor artist...but probably will never come to the attention of anyone who could make it a serious placement success..but i suspect even 'one hit wonders' are the products of professional writers..?
This is the sort of article i've been reading http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/mar02/dawson27.htm
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I haven't read the article yet but here is my take...
"Average" songs (ie good album tracks) stand zero chance of major placements with major artists - this is where the artist, producer and every tom, dick and Sally gets the chance to chalk up a writing credit
It is the "singles" where a really top notch, fantastic, HIT song (which follows the rules, is different but not too different etc.) where a new writer stands a chance
Writing the sure fire hit song is where the difficulty lies!!
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Yes of course ,thats the first thing..doing something that even the top recognized writers only pull of now and again..
2nd, someone of importance as to get to hear it, and if they care or can be bothered they might give it more than a thought,because they already have a collection of writer friends,that usually produce what they want for the artist they look after..so on and so on..
Being negative i know...but the stand alone songwriter as our friend Ralph calls them , is really up against it with out a track record of work and friends that count. ::) :D
One thing i have read several times though is , find an artist whos up and coming and write for them , so if they become a star , you will be in their circle and then your songs may be hits.
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100% agree with all that
Writing the hit song is hard enough but then getting it listened to is a whole new challenge
If it was easy everyone would be doing it ;D
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This why i Twitter a lot..the people you would like to be your contacts are all there,inc, A-list artists...for e.g. ,i 'chat' with someone whose album was produced by Jake Owen, he's a personal friend of hers...so, bit by bit shes becoming a contact...i have one or two others also...maybe it will be fruitful maybe not.....but it's a free resource and it bypasses all those road blocks and obstructions were talking about!
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Hi Boydie,
I think what the producer is talking about are the drums. My suggestion would be to replace the snare drum with the bass drum and try straight 8ths. I think you'll find the song has a lot more drive. The snare drags back the song to my ears.
Listening to a couple of Swedish House Mafia songs they drop out the drums for parts of the song. You could try that either for the verses or the couple of lines "I want walk you off the floor".
Not really my type of music, so I'm not sure if my suggestions will work. If you are up for trying my suggestions after a year with the song please let me know how you get on.
Keith
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can you tell us about the song? it's very good
ie. Did you write melody first?
Lyrics first?
Was the demo done in a pro demo service?
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Thank you for the kind words (and the PM) SEPHSLEFT06
This was the first song I wrote after my "sabbatical" from songwriting to learn about recording and music production
I used this song as an experiment to try out different techniques
I wrote the "backing" track first and then found a melody that I felt fitted
I then came up with the concept of "a boy is caught looking at a girl, that is also checking him out"
This song followed by normal approach of writing the chorus first and then writing the rest of the song & lyrics around this concept - I try to stick to a single theme/message
The demo was recorded, produced and mixed by me at home using a windows laptop (which is quite a beast of a laptop) and Cakewalk's SONAR DAW
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Hiya
Just a quick update to this...
I have just re-visited the original track to see if I could improve it using the knowledge (and new toys) I have built up over the past year or so
I didn't start from scratch with the mix but I did go through and tweak a few mix elements
I think the biggest difference has come from the "re-mastering" I have done
In case anyone is interested:
Here is the original:
https://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic/watching-me-watching-you-original/s-mifXn
Here is my new version (which has now replaced my "public" version)
https://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic/watching-me-watching-you
I think the new version has a much better "production value" and hopefully has a bit more of a professional "sparkle"
I am not convinced the song is "the one" but it gave me something to play with
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Yeah it's pretty good.some nice new toys hey....you can only pitch it and see....trick is as you know it's got to be better than the staff writers and their mates :)
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The new mix sounds a lot better than the original version. The issue I see with the song is that it sounds a little bit dated. If you would pitch it to current briefs that are not looking for an early 80s sound I'm not sure if the song would go somewhere. But, you're on the right track for sure. Best of luck and keep us updated about your pitching efforts!