[Boydie]

I agree to a point - but what I am saying is the stuff one person may think of as "bad pop music" another may see as good - and clearly many do if the songs are in the charts

I appreciate image, "look" etc. has a lot to do with it but even with this I can tell which "pop pap" songs are going to be hits

One Direction is a good example - I think the track "What Makes You Beautiful" is a good song

I personally think the opening few lines are a bit weak and I don't particularly like the melody of the verses - but the chorus is hit worthy

It is similar to "modern art" in a way - some see a splodge on a white canvas as a deep and meaningful piece whereas others think their 2 year old could have done better

It could be argued that there is no "Good" when it comes to music and art - just "like or don't like" (perhaps a topic for your next blog!)

Those more educated and "in to" music / songwriting are naturally going to like more "worthy" musicians - those not so educated/experienced with music may just want a nice tune, good beat and pretty face singing it!

Of course the ultimate driving force is sales and cash so it could also be argued that art doesn't come in to it at all!!!

[James Nighthawk]

One Direction is a good example - I think the track "What Makes You Beautiful" is a good song

(Yes. Of course everything is subjective, But here is my take... )

No. It really isn't.

It is hooky, granted, but it grates fantastically fast due in part to a production that is a clinical as a Grey's Anatomy Studio set, an asinine vocal performance, and a melody that relies upon the most basic scale choice over the major chords.

There are plenty of these songs that get stuck in my head. The common cold is easy to catch, but I would rather avoid it ta!

Lets compare it to a good pop song.

Dancing Queen, Abba:
Three or four hooks before the melody even enters. And then each and every vocal melody is a hummable gem. Major and minor chords, with some cool inversions. Deft harmonies. Clever, broad production and arrangement. Sticks in your head but still pleasant to hear.

Can't get you outta my Head, Kylie:
Minor chord progression, with some 7ths thrown in IIRC. Off beat bass. Minor synth runs. Futuristic, smart production. A single word chorus that still retains character. A vocal that isn't autotuned to death and has character throughout. Restrained simplicity. Hidden harmonies that grow ("Stay forever and ever and ever..")

I know you often look at songs as product. But there is no reason that the product couldn't be a little more solid? Perhaps writers themselves are loathe to send their songs to Simon Cowell corp... can't say I blame em!

Again, just my view!

[James Nighthawk]

BTW,

These discussions are great 

I like the disparity of views. It makes us all think in different ways.

[Boydie]

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying


However, for the sake of the discussion...

It could be argued that there is no "Good" when it comes to music and art - just "like or don't like" (perhaps a topic for your next blog!)

Those more educated and "in to" music / songwriting are naturally going to like more "worthy" musicians - those not so educated/experienced with music may just want a nice tune, good beat and pretty face singing it!

You have kinda proved my point by pointing out the clever (more worthy?) devices used in the tracks you mention (which are both stellar tracks IMHO)

However, I am sure there are plenty of people out there that don't like "Dancing Queen" or "Can't Get You Outta My Head" but love the One Direction track  - although to be fair they are probably female and 12 years old!!!!)

Which also kinda supports what I am saying - this is the target market for the product so it has to be simple - which is what makes it clever and "good"

It is the same as books - it is like comparing the "Gruffalo" to "Wuthering Heights"

Kids are obviously going to prefer the Gruffalo but Wuthering Heights has more clever devices - imagery, metaphors, sub plots etc.

So in conclusion One Direction are like the Gruffalo! 

[James Nighthawk]

And now we have the topic of marketing and demographics, along with pop music as commodity. A HUGE topic. about 100 blogs worth in fact

Yup, I actually started to type a point about the target market for One Direction being prepubescent girls, but decided it was a WHOLE other point for another dad.

Summation: Sells well does not equal (but can equal) good music

Another day, as I say 

[Ramshackles]

In the 60's, The Beatles, The Beach Boys and The Monkees were also extremely popular with kids....

Nowadays...

[Boydie]

You are making a huge assumption that One Direction are not going to become as iconic, successful and achieve critical acclaim as being better than the Beatles!!













**Removes Tongue From Cheek**

[Ramshackles]

You are making a huge assumption that One Direction are not going to become as iconic, successful and achieve critical acclaim as being better than the Beatles!!













**Removes Tongue From Cheek**

I do believe there is a difference in the quality of this 'mainstream' pop between then and now. Both in terms of songwriting and production. And it is a negative difference......


I also believe there is a huge difference in marketing strategies and peoples ability to sell themselves....

[James Nighthawk]

I do believe there is a difference in the quality of this 'mainstream' pop between then and now. Both in terms of songwriting and production. And it is a negative difference......

I also believe there is a huge difference in marketing strategies and peoples ability to sell themselves....

Blog incoming on EXACTLY this. Might take a week or so, bloody work schedual!

In the mean time, any notes on the subject more than welcome! 

[James Nighthawk]

As promised...

Here is my Blog about Pop music from the discussion above triggered by the last Blog ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Thanks to Boydie, Ramsy et al for the triggers and great discussion points!

Let's see where this one takes you all!! 

http://jamesnighthawk.com/2012/10/modern-pop-why-all-the-pap/

JN xx

[habiTat]

Good stuff James

I agree with all of that. I hope you're right about the revolt, these things do happen in cycles. Remember that Brit pop resurgence of actual bands? Supergrass, Blur, Oasis, Pulp etc... I reckon a new wave is overdue methinks...

hab..

[tone]

An interesting read James - you write well.

I would say that every generation has a lot of awful pop music that's forgotten as the years go by. Sure the 1970's had T Rex, Bowie and Split Enz, but it also had The Osmonds, the Nolans and the Bay City Rollers.

JLS, Little Mix and Olly Murs, anyone? There's a lot of really good pop music out there. But there's a lot of every kind of music, and of course, the majority of it ain't as good as the best of it.

You may hate them, but take that are a great example. Started off being likely contenders for 90s shitty pop hell, turned out to have a top songwriter on board, and a credible second-coming career.

Much as it ain't my cup of tea, I expect that Lady Gaga will be remembered as will the likes of Britney, Justin Trousersnake, Aguilera et al.

I prefer my pop music to be more arty, and I'll take Bjork over Bieber any day of the week, any week of my life.

Is the golden era of pop over, or is it just too overcrowded to be seen clearly at the moment? I think the economics of making records has probably introduced a bias toward a quick buck without having to spend money developing artists. I hope once the industry sorts itself out, it'll go back to championing innovative and catchy music.

[James Nighthawk]

Much as it ain't my cup of tea, I expect that Lady Gaga will be remembered as will the likes of Britney, Justin Trousersnake, Aguilera et al.

There are tracks by all four of those artists I enjoy. Hell, I think I own albums by most of them.

Lady Gaga is arty and quirky, within certain parameters and it clearly works well for marketing. But the production is slick and the songs have clever quirks.

Justin worked with some very cool writers for his second album. Only ever been worthwhile for singles though. An album is painful.

The stuff Christina did with Linda Perry was very good. But damn does she over sing at every opourtunity!

And the Neptunes made sonic craziness, briefly, popular with "Slave for You" by Britney

I write this to make a point: I like pop music. I have no issue with pop. There just seems to be a lot more dirge out there. Those four artists are all, perhaps surprisingly, fine by me.

And now Girls Aloud are on the radio.

Le sigh

 

[Boydie]

A very interesting read

I still have the problem that to say any release quality song is "tripe" is purely subjective, which is fine when venting an opinion but in the blog it reads like "fact" (although I will come back to this at the end)

The blog did make me think though and I think you have hit the nail on the head - it is not so much the "pop music" or songs that are the issue but rather the "manufactured" artists that have little, or no "pedigree" and don't actually have anything to say with their music

Is this not the real issue?

The whole "Stock, Aitken and Waterman" merry-go-'round of taking Australian soap actors & actresses and turning them into popstars was perhaps the beginning of the end

This has been continued with Popstars, X-Factor etc. letting any Tom, Dick or Harry (Styles) have a bash at being a pop star

If you name 10 pop stars/bands that represent all that is wrong with the industry I am sure we could find another 10 carrying the baton for "real music" so all hope may not be lost


So is it fact that music has got worse?

Actually, it may well be...

Here is a very interesting study (you can PM me the "told you so"  )

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/26/is-pop-music-evolving-or-is-it-just-getting-louder/

[James Nighthawk]

I still have the problem that to say any release quality song is "tripe" is purely subjective, which is fine when venting an opinion but in the blog it reads like "fact" (although I will come back to this at the end)

A blog is by nature an opinion. It is how I see things. I have no editors to please, so yup I will be opinionated

The article you linked to is interesting.

I am very well acquainted with the loudness race and have discussed this is a past blog

The notes on melody homogenisation is interesting. Furthermore, musical minimalism is also a factor. It can be used well. Kelis "Milkshake" is one chord throughout (IIRC) and the main chorus melody mostly one note too! But it works.

Alas, there are myriad songs where such minimalism is employed to far less extent. Single note melodies on tonic chords abound, and it can start to grate