[GuyBarry]

When I originally wrote the lyrics to "Don't Mix Your Drinks" they began:

In every supermarket there's a most delicious drink,
In corner shops, off-licences and any pub you think...

It really bugged me.  It should have been  "any pub you think of", but I couldn't find a way of getting the rhyming and scansion to work.  Eventually I dropped the off-licences and it became "in every corner shop and any pub of which you think", which maybe sounds a bit formal but is at least correct English!

This put me in mind of those occasions where, for reasons of rhyme or scansion, a lyricist has accidentally turned grammatical English into nonsense.  For me the classic example is at the beginning of Sandie Shaw's 1967 Eurovision winner "Puppet on a String" (lyrics by Bill Martin, music by Phil Coulter):

I wonder if one day that you'll say that you care...

It should be "I wonder if one day you'll say that you care" - the first "that" is redundant.  Any more like this?

[MartynRich]

Probably more than a couple of million...I understand people wanting their lyrics to have meaning but  when you start taking a red pen to them grammatically, I think it kind of loses the point...

[Oldbutyet]

In the latest song I recorded "the white man come" one of the thing that annoy me was the chorus, it didn't have one, but I had the chords for one, in the end and that flow of the moment I just said fu*k it, and went "huh huh huh huh"  yeah sounds good to me I thought.

[GuyBarry]

Probably more than a couple of million...I understand people wanting their lyrics to have meaning but  when you start taking a red pen to them grammatically, I think it kind of loses the point...

Loses the point of what?  I don't know about anyone else but I want my audiences to understand what I'm singing about.  But then I suppose the lyrics matter more in some songs than others.

There's a really funny song written by Sheldon Harnick called "The Ballad of the Shape of Things" that I posted a link to in another thread - lyrics here.  I love it but I'm always pulled up by the line "Rectangular is the transom over which I had to peek through".  Did you peek over it or through it?  These things matter to me.

[MartynRich]

Loses the point of what?  I don't know about anyone else but I want my audiences to understand what I'm singing about.  But then I suppose the lyrics matter more in some songs than others.

Losing the point that a song is a complete package, not a set of lyrics put to music. A few grammatical errors doesn´t mean people won´t understand you or the meaning. In fact it may strengthen it if the lyrics scan better and are made more memorable.

[adamfarr]

There was a debate about something similar not so long ago, here:

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=10497.msg97483#msg97483

To borrow and misuse a worn phrase: "Perfect can be the enemy of good!" Poetic licence is a thing, and should continue to be, as long as deliberate and not just lazy!

[delb0y]

One way of looking at this is that it depends who the narrator of the song is - this is, of course, assuming that a song is written from the perspective of someone else (as many of mine are). So a song written from the perspective of a BBC Radio Presenter from 1950 would have very different grammar to that in a song being told by a football hooligan from the 1970s.

[tone]

If the songwriter's intent is apparent to the listener, then I think grammar can go suck on a stick. I understand where you're coming from, but grammar for its own sake is somewhat pointless.

My approach is this: because lyrics are sung, they work best when they are written as people (the singer) speak(s). Just imagine what films & TV would be like if screenwriters were strict grammaticians. It would be bloody awful. And the same goes for songs in my opinion. Writing in a conversational style makes the lyrics more real, easier to sing, and more interesting to hear. End of.

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

And in the quoted example the 'day that' is set up to rhyme with 'say that' with a fair bit of emphasis on this part of the lyric. It works. Without the first 'that' it would be correct perhaps, and would still work to some extent, but it wouldn't work as well.

[Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra]

I should have further said.....

He could also have missed out both 'that's....'I wonder if one day you'll say you care' but he would have lost the impact that the double rhyme device gives it.

I'm all for bending grammar for effect.

If you google the lyric to 'She's got it' by Little Richard one of the verse goes....

Ruby lips
Shapely hips
When she walks down the street
All the cats flip

It sounds like he actually sings 'All the cat flips' which means heaven knows what, but of course we do know what.

The dreaded double negative is very common and a good job too.

'There isn't any sunshine when she's gone' just doesn't do it.

Likewise 'I quite simply cannot get any satisfaction'

[pompeyjazz]

I personally think that grammar does not matter one jot with regards to lyrics. With lyrics you are using the vocals not only as a melody line but also as a rhythm. Think be bop a Lula. What grammatical nonsense but what a feel. If you have to drop an extra word or two in to fit the rhythm even if it's grammatically incorrect then who really gives a fig. There are lots of songs where the lyrics are meaningless e.g Blinded by the light but I bet loads of people know the words off by heart and each has their own personal interpretation. Just my view anyway. Apologies for the poor grammar and probably spelling as well 

Cheers John

[MartynRich]

 

[pompeyjazz]

Great stuff VC. Isn't that a shame, Excuse me sir but could you please remove yourself from my cloud, Excuse me while I go and kiss the sky.

Enough said. I'll be on this all night now 

Pompeyjazz

[pompeyjazz]

Sorry  just being flippant

[GuyBarry]

My approach is this: because lyrics are sung, they work best when they are written as people (the singer) speak(s).

Yeah.  And no one in normal conversation would say "I wonder if one day that you'll say that you care".

To me the whole essence of songwriting is trying to fit the natural rhythms of speech to the natural rhythms of music.  They're very different, which is why I find it such a challenging task.  And fun.