[jmacdon]

I'm not sure if this subject has been discussed before, but i'm keen to raise a point and also have a wee rant:

I keep hearing songs uploaded on this forum that are "written in 10 minutes" or " a rough demo......".  My concern and my advice to all songwriters participating in this forum is to please please spend more time  preparing a good quality recording of your tracks - rather than just record the first take and post that onto the website.   Those of you who have submitted songs to agents and record / film / tv companies will know that the quality of the recording is often as important as the quality of the songwriting. 

It's great to hear original music on here (and admire the talent of so many members) - but I feel that so many of you could improve the quality of your music far far more by spending some extra time re-recording it; playing it back to yourself; performing edits to remove any bum notes; etc etc.   

Please provide your thoughts?   Are first time recordings acceptable?  Or do you prefer a more polished production?

Ciao.

[chrislong170273]

erm, disagree, in every way.
 
Surely the purpose of a review message board is to give feedback and then, if someone needs to, act on the advice. Is someone going to spend days (weeks?) creating a polished recording only to have to go and rerecord because a chorus needs to be in a different place, or a bridge has been added, or the drums need altering, etc.

of course recording quality is important for a final reocording, but i see a lot of the work on here as sketches, ideas

:-)
Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

[jmacdon]

Good challenge Chris.   Whether a posting on this forum is sketch quality or broadcast quality is probably irrelevant for the composer - as they (and we) are looking for feedback on the merits of the song.   And this forum provides great advice and constructive criticism on the song, rather than the production quality.

  [hang my head in shame] 

[Ramshackles]

erm, disagree, in every way.
 
Surely the purpose of a review message board is to give feedback and then, if someone needs to, act on the advice. Is someone going to spend days (weeks?) creating a polished recording only to have to go and rerecord because a chorus needs to be in a different place, or a bridge has been added, or the drums need altering, etc.

of course recording quality is important for a final reocording, but i see a lot of the work on here as sketches, ideas

:-)
Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

It depends, I find a lot of stuff on here is what the artist considers the 'finished' version, in which case I would expect some effort to have gone in to recording and mixing it as well as they can. Yes, it's a songwriting forum, but the songwriting is so much easier to judge when it's presented as well as it can be. I think many people are accomplished songwriters, but don't have much experience when it comes to recording, which is a whole different animal and the recording section of this forum could use some beefing out with helpful advice and pointers!

[chrislong170273]

but then advice should be given on production and recording. Can't expect someone to produce it and post it with a professional finish if they don;t have that experience

What I call a finished recording and someone else calls a finished recording can be two completely different things according to experience, and that is as it should be...

I've heard some shockers on a forums, but the writer is obviously very proud and is working at their level, and this should be acknowledged and advice given to improve?

just thoughts
Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

[tone]

It's a really interesting debate this, and despite my fairly shameful track record, I sit somewhere in the middle of this.

I don't think the recording needs to be amazing quality to post on the forum, but I do think you should take the time to set up a clean signal, and do a bare minimum of mixing (ie add a touch of reverb, compression maybe, eq, keep it tidy). But equally importantly, I think you need to give the best performance you can. As a songwriter, a lot of what we do is create an emotional response. We need to try and communicate that in our recordings, which is easier said than done. If the heart of your song is present in the recording, it will make the quality less of an issue unless it's really dire.

[chrislong170273]

hmmmm
still going to disagree. Is a song any better or worse if recorded on a phone, or into a pc?
I think what the song contains musically is much more important.

Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

[Ramshackles]

hmmmm
still going to disagree. Is a song any better or worse if recorded on a phone, or into a pc?
I think what the song contains musically is much more important.

Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

If the quality of the recording interferes with the listeners ability to appreciate the actual music, then yes a song can sound better or worse depending on how its recorded. I've heard songs with so much unintentional distortion and clipping that they are almost painful to sit through - I cant make musical judgements in the light of that quality.

[chrislong170273]

Nd if that's a gooid a recording as they can achieve?
Sorry, I'm playing devils advocate. When I'm delivering songwriting courses, recording doesn't even come in to it.

- also runa songwriting forum and it is full of. Phone recordings, sketches, ideas, the real musical meat of the songs. If we can't tell what the song should be like from the recording then that is an issue. But I don't think people should think, well, I'm not posting this because there may be a bit too much reverb her, or the bass drum and bass guitar are not eq'ed correctly.

I suppode there could be a base line recording quality. To me, a recording of a singer/guitar on a phone will give a good enough impression for people to advise on the musical elements of the song.

Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

[tone]

I admire your commitment to the song, Chris, and in an ideal world I agree with you. But like Ramshackles says, we've had some songs posted here where the quality is so bad that you can't hear the song properly.

I think there's a connection between the two. Those with more experience and dedication tend to offer more presentable recordings because it's part of their art, even if it's just a sketch. But those who are writing their first songs sometimes don't know how to make a better recording than the one on their mobile - even though they probably know it's not a good representation of what they do.

 - aside -
oooh, another songwriting forum? Tell me more

[Kafla]

99% of the comments on the forum are about production - needs more effects, vocals dont sit nice on track , something out of tune - unless the recording is unbelievably bad I can usually see past the production and admire the songwriting

It's ironic that there is also some beautifully recorded songs that do nothing for me - sterile and just empty

Hardly any comments about chord changes, melody, lyrics, song structure - it's a real shame as this is the true songwriting part

On the other hand I have learned so much about recording/production from the useful feedback I have received

Just wish we could have some more songwriting based reviews

[Dutchbeat]

I prefer listening to songs where some time has been devoted on making the sound right, but we are all in different stages with different equipment and possibilities.... Many of the regulars of this forum now may have (a lot of) equipment, but they will also have started somewhere, perhaps with only the option to record one track for let's say a guitar and singing at the same time, or piano and singing on a cassette tape....in my case...yes, that is how old i am...but i would still have been very happy if there was a place like this where one can get feedback
 
on the other hand there is a limit to the noise the listener can take, but then this is said to the songwriter, and there also is a limit to songs where it doesn't seem that very little effort has been put into really writing and finishing the song. But even that is no real problem, but in case like that i think the number of reviews / topics started should not be excessive by one member (sometimes, I think we perhaps should limit the number of own songs / products, i mean new topics for review started by one songwriter to a maximum of one a week or one per two weeks. Just make people more selective, and have more focussed discussions with the entire community on a somewhat limited amount of topics)

just a thought...

and, Chris, you were talking about a songwriterforum you have, can tell us more (not that i want to leave Tone's nice corner on the web in anyway....)

[Ramshackles]

99% of the comments on the forum are about production - needs more effects, vocals dont sit nice on track , something out of tune - unless the recording is unbelievably bad I can usually see past the production and admire the songwriting

It's ironic that there is also some beautifully recorded songs that do nothing for me - sterile and just empty

Hardly any comments about chord changes, melody, lyrics, song structure - it's a real shame as this is the true songwriting part

On the other hand I have learned so much about recording/production from the useful feedback I have received

Just wish we could have some more songwriting based reviews

I think this delves into slightly different territory. My feeling is that reviews where the songwriting is not particularly mentioned but the production is critiqued can be because:
 - People naturally don't want to upset others, it's easier to criticize the production as this is more objective and can be things that are easily rectified or learned, whereas the actual song is more subjective and personal. I know I'm guilty of steering away from criticising songs to pointing out what I would change in the production.

- It can be harder to criticise songwriting. Of course you can easily tell if you don't like something, but suggesting what to change or giving constructive criticism is harder - especially if you don't like the song at all! It's easier to point out obvious mistakes;

-The age old people just posting a lot of positive reviews to garner attention for their own song.

[tone]

I'm glad we're talking about this - the songwriting reviews I mean.

It's so hard to offer a constructive review that's fully honest. In fact, sometimes I refrain from reviewing a piece because I can't offer anything more constructive than 'put this aside, and write something better.'

That sounds harsh I know, but with newer members I always imagine there's a fine line between helping them and alienating them. If we're too harsh with our reviews, will they lose confidence or maybe stop writing even? Having said that, I wouldn't stop writing if some of you lot told me one of my songs was shite, but then I've been writing for a lot of years, and had a lot of positive feedback in the past, so I have a certain confidence in what I do that takes years to build up.

It is much harder to criticise songwriting, but I think we should all make the effort to focus on the songs instead of the productions. This is the songwriter forum after all.

Great to see you all getting your teeth into this thread!

[chrislong170273]

I second Kaflas comment. I've only been coming on here for a couple of weeks but in the review section there is so little in the way of real musical advice. I also see reviews that say something is brilliant, i listen to it and feel the song is fundamentally flawed and needs a compelte re write (I'm with tone on this).

Personal taste, musical ability (of reviewer and reviewee), age, aesthetic awareness, stylistic understanding, all determine how good/bad/useful a review is. But then, isn;t this the nature of a 'forum', where everyone gets a say? Personally I find the opinons on overall style the most useful, but that's because I am quite comfortable musically in being able to fix a song/piece of music that doesn't work. I suppose everyone has to take what they want from reviews and be prepared to get negative feedback by posting?

But this is all getting away from the original comment regarding production quality, and i stand by the arguement that this is a songwriting forum, not a studio production forum. (unless those styles of writing, such as dance, rely on production). I think the only time it should be called into question is if the poor quality masks the musical qualities.

When I teach songwriting we focus on lyrics, chords and melody. To me a song should be performable on a guitar/piano with a singer. The fundamental musical elements don't change when it is arranged/prduced. And if these elements aren't right in the first place, no amount of production will make a bad song good.

tone/dutchbeat
yes i run a forum as part of an educational project run across Worcestershire. Unfortunately it is limited to members involved in the project, as it does involve school kids. But you can visit the website:
www.musicandlyrics.org.uk
The songs on the site are first attempts from a couple of years back. Most of the songs are by under 16s and are collaborative between singers, lyricists and chord instrument players. They are not attempting to be original in terms of style, just to work as good songs.

Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk