[diademgrove]

Thanks Pomp, Neil, Adam & Keith

I'm not that bothered about an occasional lost syllable - in fact, if anything, the vocal is a little too consistent volume-wise after using the vocal rider without understanding any of the controls... :p But I think the benefit outweighs the compromises. I agree with Keith about there being room for more dynamic range in the track as a whole, and there was to begin with. A combination of the vocal rider and the (what I considered gentle) compression seems to have pretty much swallowed it though. Not really sure how to go back and undo it either as my version control has been erratic to say the least.

Thanks so much for your feedback and help chaps. There'll be a final mix of this at some point

If you're happy with the mix between the piano and vocal you should be able to easily alter the dynamics of the finished track. You just use the final mix, import it into a new session and reduce the volume of the beginning. My DAW allows me to draw a volume line to change the volume. Same as riding the fader but a lot less messy.

Good luck,

Keith

[tone]

Thanks Keith

I did consider that, but won't it sound slightly artificial? Would you simply draw a straight volume adjustment line say -3db to 0db over a couple of minutes? Thanks again

Tone

[Boydie]

I plan to have a proper listen later today but some immediate points just based on the comments having not listened to the track

If you have WAVES Vocal Rider then this is an excellent STARTING POINT for riding the vocal - but the key is to let vocal rider do the "donkey work" - but you will still need to go through and adjust the automation envelope that vocal rider creates to fit the SONG - sometimes based on pure "maths, algorithms  & calculations" it will reduce parts you want louder and vice versa- putting a human touch to the vocal rider starting point makes ALL the difference

I agree with you that using automation on the master/2 track/summing bus etc. may sound a little odd for dynamics

Ideally the dynamics should be in the recording - e.g. A "pushed" vocal or hard hit piano is much more than just "louder"

However, I do think you could achieve the dynamic by riding the levels of the piano through the track - so rather than a linear increase you get a wavy line that does subtly increase as the track progresses

I would do this individually for each element as raising the volume of both at exactly the same time may sound a little artificial on an organic track like this - in pop/edm you can get away with boosting the chorus section a few dbs and raising the level through the track

I will give some further thoughts when I listen to the latest version of the track

[diademgrove]

Thanks Keith

I did consider that, but won't it sound slightly artificial? Would you simply draw a straight volume adjustment line say -3db to 0db over a couple of minutes? Thanks again

Tone

I would look for natural breaks in the song where a db here and there would make a big difference. A quick listen suggests a 3db cut up to around the end of the first piano solo would set the benchmark. A small increase in volume for the next section to around 2.20 and then a further small increase. The final increase would be after the last piano interlude for the final vocal. I would then play around with the volume changes (including where in the song they were made) to make sure it sounds natural and gives you goosebumps.

Once you get the levels right you can look at the overall volume and make sure its not too quiet when mastered. Its basically a question of trial and error. Well for me it is. Luckily we don't have to waste any tape and a correction is just a click of the mouse away.

Good luck.

[adamfarr]

Now Boydie's having a listen maybe I should retire wisely! But a few additional thoughts:

I very often do automation on the master bus volume - even just half or 1.5 db softer in verses, up a bit for pre-choruses and a bit more for the chorus. If it's audible then maybe it's too much. And it might suit a full band more than a sparse style. This may be getting into mastering territory but here it might be worth experimenting with as Keith suggests.

As I understand it, a vocal rider is a kind of (sidechained) expander so if you also have a compressor then maybe the two are working against each other (and the order they are applied may also affect things, and each of them may also affect the EQ in a different way!). In any event, I would still automate the fader manually afterwards.

If you feel compression is necessary but sucks out some of the life, then maybe parallel compression is the way to go (if you haven't already) - the compressed send will even out the annoyingly loud or soft bits, but the dry track should retain the life that you originally gave it. Then play with the blend... (and even automate that if needed!)

I confess to quite liking all this stuff, but am the first to admit that I have only begun to scratch the surface so others with more experience may be more on the ball... I do think the track is really good, but I think you are looking for truly great which is where these details could count.

[Boydie]

I think the mix sounds great and serves the song really well - great job

If I were being ultra picky (which is what you have asked for)...

Compared to previous versions I have heard the vocal now sounds noticeably "processed" - which presents the most interesting issue when it comes to mixing - do you go for "technically good" or keep the imperfections if they help serve the emotional impact of the song

IMHO the emotion of the song is the most important thing and it is a really fine/tricky balance

The piano is sounding great - although I think I would personally be tempted to increase the reverb a touch

I do not personally feel the need to increase the dynamics of the song - I think that is already present in the performance

[tone]

So when Boydie offered to have a crack at mix/mastering this track I bit not just his hand but his whole arm off.

And I was not disappointed.

This is the finished tune https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/victory-lap-peter-james-millson-cover

I'd love to hear your feedback. Thanks again Mr Boydie

[adamfarr]

Really like it. I think it was important not to lose any of those lyrics. The piano sounds really woody and warm.

@Boydie are you allowed to share any of what you did (for educational purposes)!?

[Skub]

So when Boydie offered to have a crack at mix/mastering this track I bit not just his hand but his whole arm off.

And I was not disappointed.

This is the finished tune https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/victory-lap-peter-james-millson-cover

I'd love to hear your feedback. Thanks again Mr Boydie

I went looking for the originally posted version to do a back to back comparison,but you must have necked the track,Tone.

All I can say is the new version sounds lovely,but I can't compare to hear the difference/improvements.

[tone]

Yes Skub, I did. Apologies for that - I was so excited to post the finished track that it didn't occur to me to leave it up for a side by side. Would you like me to post it back up again so you can hear the difference?

[Skub]

Yes please Tone. I like to keep tabs on Boydie to see if I can catch him out on anything. 

[tone]

Yes please Tone. I like to keep tabs on Boydie to see if I can catch him out on anything. 

Good luck with that!

Here's the last mix I did https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/victory-lap-mix6/s-OfoJa

And here's Boydie's mix https://soundcloud.com/anthony-lane/victory-lap-peter-james-millson-cover

Thanks again for your ears everyone

[Skub]

In Boydie's mix you can hear the warmth of the piano and the vocals have lost that proximity/bass effect,yet both retain clarity.

The difference is there to hear. Cheers Tone.

It's funny,I'd have been happy with the original until I heard the update. Go figure. 

[Boydie]

@Boydie are you allowed to share any of what you did (for educational purposes)!?

I can do much better than that...   

I have mentioned before about recording video tutorials and I wanted to show TONE some of things we had been talking about

I therefore used this as a bit of a test - so I recorded the whole process of mixing this track from beginning to end

I won't have time to do any editing and the videos "go on a bit" - showing the process "warts and all" (so SKUB will be able to see my mistakes and corrections!!!)

I will be making some specific tutorial videos in the future, which will be planned out in advance, edited and cover specific topics - which will build in to a whole course over time

However, if anyone wants to see my "real time" process - which was completely unprepared and recorded "on the fly" as I went then TONE has kindly agreed for me to share them on a limited basis

If you do want to see them please send me a PM, including your email address - unfortunately I can't share them to everyone (it is a covered song) so if you want a copy please PM as soon as possible

I would, however, suggest waiting for my planned tutorials if you want to learn things in a more planned and structured way

[Skub]

Taps foot and waits.


Taps foot.