[S.T.C]

Gary Barlow is successful because he wrote for a boy band ...Take That  and when the boy band faded,,so did he...i think that`s fair to say.

But now modern popular music has gone even more down the pan....it welcomed him back...he`s safe.he`s polite,his songs are light ,,suitable for a mass market,,,hence financial rewards....

Ed Sheeran must pinch himself daily.`is this for real`..he gets millions of YT hits,,,for what `witty ` songs about lego....his he the cutting edge of the music scene these days?

Now if your talking Jake Bugg...that`s a different matter..this kid really as got song writing ability..

[Alan Starkie]

What other Ed Sheeran songs do you know?

Try 'Little Bump'.

Your mind is closed to every artist that doesn't tick your own personal genre boxes.

As a would be pro songwriter, this is the wrong attitude to music.

I presume you are wanting to be a published pro songwriter?

Do yourself a favour STC. You can't afford to think that way about very successful published writers.

[S.T.C]

What other Ed Sheeran songs do you know?

Try 'Little Bump'.

Your mind is closed to every artist that doesn't tick your own personal genre boxes.

As a would be pro songwriter, this is the wrong attitude to music.

I presume you are wanting to be a published pro songwriter?

Do yourself a favour STC. You can't afford to think that way about very successful published writers.

I`m harsh with these guys ,because they end become multi millionaires ...and then i go on Soundcloud...and hear much better material form people who will barely scrape by....my attack is as much on the music business as those it promotes....the cream does not rise to the top...

It `s called small bump....
And ,what do you want me to say? he can sing .i will give him that...but this sort of twaddle is supposed to get what sort of reaction out of me?  the guys a genius,Dylan reborn,,what|??

Iv`e spent too long listening too too much good music,to get excited about all these singersongwriters promoted by a cynical music business...because they know their stuff tickles the ears of a mass market,bereft of taste,,,it`s been denied them ...

I am not trying to wind you up BTW...i am closed minded and rigid when it comes to opinions i admit it...

I`m with Jake...if you don`t rate them ..just say it.

[Boydie]

Gary Barlow is successful because he wrote for a boy band ...Take That  and when the boy band faded,,so did he...i think that`s fair to say.

But now modern popular music has gone even more down the pan

I appreciate you are "hamming up" your view to provoke discussion but I do think Alan is right about opening up your mind a little

I think it is easy (and dangerous) to confuse "good" song writing and "commercially successful" songwriting

NOBODY can define "good" as it is completely subjective - what I think is "absolutely fantastic" (to quote Gary Barlow  ) someone else might hate

However, commercially successful writers (especially those that maintain some degree of "credibility") are much easier to identify

If you do strive to write commercially you should be "open" to commercially successful songs - especially the ones you don't like - to at the very least UNDERSTAND why they are successfull

Having said all of that I do admire that you are "sticking to your principles" and I genuinely hope that you do find success doing it "your way" - I am hust a commercial "whore" and will write in whatever style I think will increase my chances of commercial success  

[Alan Starkie]

You're not winding me up. It's all good comment.

But I've read a few comments you've made insinuating that you're the only one left in the world with musical taste. You seem to have the attitude that all songs that you personally don't like are rubbish?

You're harsh because they end up millionaires? That sounds more bitter than angry tbh.

And yes, soundcloud has some good music but they haven't made it. That's just how it's always been and always will be.

It's like entering the UK Songwriting contest, not winning, and then saying the winner was crap. Bad form.

There are lots of great writers. Some make it. Some don't. Period.

I can live with that. Fair play to all of them who do.

It won't effect me or the way I regard other writers.

No low blows here. All constructive I think.

[S.T.C]

" But I've read a few comments you've made insinuating that you're the only one left in the world with musical taste. You seem to have the attitude that all songs that you personally don't like are rubbish?

You're harsh because they end up millionaires? That sounds more bitter than angry tbh."


No , actually i am not.....i just see this all in black and white...i don`t think all songs i don`t like are rubbish.....thats your words ,not mine...

Bitter,,,no,,,not me....i understand the mechanics of the music business,,,and how it rewards..

I think celebrity and fame create their own aura and everyone bows down to the golden calf,,in fear...oh God they must be good cos i`m told they are and their at number one..and they drive a Ferrari  etc..

These peeps have all the time and resources in the world and they fail to excite me...try working as a chef and having the energy to be creative!!

The other day on YT someone was rating ColdPlay with the Beatles....well i ask you...this is the mindset of music fans now,,,,we will soon have Michelin star McDonalds no doubt.

[Boydie]

The other day on YT someone was rating ColdPlay with the Beatles....well i ask you...this is the mindset of music fans now,,,,we will soon have Michelin star McDonalds no doubt.

But this is all subjective

Is someone rates ColdPlay as better than the Beatles - then they rate ColdPlay better than the Beatles

They are not "wrong" - that is what they think

I also really like McDonalds  

In fact someone on the forum made an excellent point about McDonals a while ago that stuck with me

There are LOTS of people that make a "better" burger than McDonalds (in fact I myself make a mean burger myself  ) - but McDonalds have the marketing, business nouse, marketing etc.

I think this analogy is perfect for the songwriting/commercial hit discussion

It is irrelevant whether we like it or not - that is how it has been and how it is!

[Alan Starkie]

But maybe they just like Coldplay as much as The Beatles?

When I write stuff with my cowriter for our 'River Junkies' project, the fact that he can't stand The Beatles doesn't affect our songs at all. I love The Beatles. Alex hates them. It doesn't mean I'm right and he's wrong.

You do make some good points but I don't agree with all of them.

I'd leave your (admittedly very tiring) job out of the discussion too. It gives the impression that you're making excuses why you're not as creative as them.

Gotta go now. I've enjoyed this chat STC :-)

Edit - and Boydie. How rude of me :-)

[S.T.C]

you're making excuses why you're not as creative as them.

NO my point is ,,,i am more creative than them...but if i could hang about in a studio week in week out ..etc  

Anyway i would like to say for the record i am a naturally modest individual ,but when pressed to fight my corner i will,,,,later i will attempt to write an absolute classic whilst slapping dead flash on a hot griddle.

[tone]

Bitter,,,no,,,not me....i understand the mechanics of the music business,,,and how it rewards..

I think celebrity and fame create their own aura and everyone bows down to the golden calf,,in fear...oh God they must be good cos i`m told they are and their at number one..and they drive a Ferrari  etc..

These peeps have all the time and resources in the world and they fail to excite me...try working as a chef and having the energy to be creative!!

The other day on YT someone was rating ColdPlay with the Beatles....well i ask you...this is the mindset of music fans now,,,,we will soon have Michelin star McDonalds no doubt.

Ok, you say you understand the mechanics of the music business, but your comments don't back this up at all.

Celebrity and fame *do* create their own aura, and many people bow down to those who are successful, BUT, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve their success and they're not highly skilled musicians and/ or songwriters.

Take ABBA for example. Some say the best pop writing team since the Beatles. God knows they were successful enough. Which must mean they were actually poor to average according your rules?

Having access to studios and musicians doesn't make good *songs*, it makes good *records*. There is a massive difference.

Not having to work in a regular job for a living does mean you have more time to write songs, but don't kid yourself into thinking the likes of Gary Barlow or Ed Sheeran just swan around all day making tea and fiddling about on the guitar. Being famous is a massive time commitment. Interviews, promotion, travelling, performing, meetings, it all adds up to a full time job.

Your earlier argument about playing the piano giving someone an advantage: I AGREE. Which is why I learned to play the piano! I suggest you do the same if you wanna write at your very best.

So what if coldplay don't float your boat. They don't float mine either, but I will tell you this: they've spent over a decade touring, writing, promoting, etc relentlessly, and they've shaped a sound that's instantly identifiably, and that strikes a chord with the public. Maybe there's room in your narrow mind to allow them a little success?

I know you're enjoying being provocative, but your arguments are full of holes and pretty naive...

[Homeless Recluse]

you're making excuses why you're not as creative as them.

NO my point is ,,,i am more creative than them...but if i could hang about in a studio week in week out ..etc  

Yeah, but wit respect nothing is expected of you.
Can you imagine the pressure that they're under for 'producing the goods' because they have had success. If you make it, you'll still have pressure, just a different form. And If anything I think it gets harder to write the more you write, and I imagine especially so, if you've had massive success, as it becomes harder to escape the box that you've written yourself into and what's expected of you; if that makes sense!

It's also not as black and white as it appears to be; there are a whole series of steps and people involved from the conception through to release of a song/album that I don't think you've considered. No one achieves ANYTHING on their own.

[S.T.C]

@TONE.
Ok, you say you understand the mechanics of the music business, but your comments don't back this up at all....really

Celebrity and fame *do* create their own aura, and many people bow down to those who are successful, BUT, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve their success and they're not highly skilled musicians and/ or songwriters...umm...do you think

Take ABBA for example. Some say the best pop writing team since the Beatles. God knows they were successful enough. Which must mean they were actually poor to average according your rules?..no they were actually good songwriters,,but i rate Morrisey/Marr above them

Having access to studios and musicians doesn't make good *songs*, it makes good *records*. There is a massive difference. ..it`s the creative atmosphere and do you think they create all there stuff in a bathroom

Not having to work in a regular job for a living does mean you have more time to write songs, but don't kid yourself into thinking the likes of Gary Barlow or Ed Sheeran just swan around all day making tea and fiddling about on the guitar. Being famous is a massive time commitment. Interviews, promotion, travelling, performing, meetings, it all adds up to a full time job. yes, it just occured to me that my time constraints and energy issues actually foscus the mind,and help me...i now feel sorry for these party poppers

Your earlier argument about playing the piano giving someone an advantage: I AGREE. Which is why I learned to play the piano! I suggest you do the same if you wanna write at your very best. totally with you on this,Flossie is a great example of this

So what if coldplay don't float your boat. They don't float mine either, but I will tell you this: they've spent over a decade touring, writing, promoting, etc relentlessly, and they've shaped a sound that's instantly identifiably, and that strikes a chord with the public. Maybe there's room in your narrow mind to allow them a little success? my point is it`s like comparing roquefort and mild tesco cheddar ..there both cheese to cheese lovers but...

I know you're enjoying being provocative, but your arguments are full of holes and pretty naive...like the grand canyon mate

[tone]

@TONE.
Ok, you say you understand the mechanics of the music business, but your comments don't back this up at all....really

Yes! You can sound indignant if you want, but I still think this.

Celebrity and fame *do* create their own aura, and many people bow down to those who are successful, BUT, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve their success and they're not highly skilled musicians and/ or songwriters...umm...do you think

Again, yes, I do think. That's why I said it. If you're not going to say *why* you think that, you're going to look a tad silly.

I didn't say *everyone* who's successful is a good musician or songwriter. I said being successful doesn't mean you are not these things.

Having access to studios and musicians doesn't make good *songs*, it makes good *records*. There is a massive difference. ..it`s the creative atmosphere and do you think they create all there stuff in a bathroom

I think that's another example of your naivete. Loads of *terrible* songs are written in studios around great musicians. It makes no difference whatsoever. I reckon a lot of the songwriting happens in isolation. Paul Simon writes large parts of his songs in his car. It's about talent, and hard work - nothing else.

So what if coldplay don't float your boat. They don't float mine either, but I will tell you this: they've spent over a decade touring, writing, promoting, etc relentlessly, and they've shaped a sound that's instantly identifiably, and that strikes a chord with the public. Maybe there's room in your narrow mind to allow them a little success? my point is it`s like comparing roquefort and mild tesco cheddar ..there both cheese to cheese lovers but...

So now you're saying good songwriting is subjective? Make up your mind mate!

[S.T.C]

All said and done,i know that you know!!

But i will answer this .

"I think that's another example of your naivete. Loads of *terrible* songs are written in studios around great musicians. It makes no difference whatsoever. I reckon a lot of the songwriting happens in isolation. Paul Simon writes large parts of his songs in his car. It's about talent, and hard work - nothing else. "

Course i know that songs can be written anywhere...my point is for songs to sound good they benefit from the professional studio,,,which this lot of access to..

Can`t believe all this is over my not praising  Gary flaming Barlow,,guess i better not say what i think of Robbie had i,

[Jess]

ENOUGH OF THE MEN
I think we should take a moment to appreciate Bonnie Mckee.
(Cowrites on all Katy Perry's hits, as well as writing with/for Taio Cruz, Rita Ora, Kelly Clarkson, Ellie Goulding, Ke$ha, Britney Spears, the list goes on...)